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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Author
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2361 - 2015-03-05 13:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jenn aSide wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:




This may very well be true, but can someone PLEASE provide accurate independent and most importantly public data to show exactly how good or bad this is.

For wormhole space Corbexx, our CSM spent days running sites in all classes of WH space to give accurate data that enabled CCP to rebalance lower class holes.

If you do the same, you hopefully will benefit from similar results.


So CCP doesn't know how much null systems are worth. You're literally accusing CCP of being unable to do math.

Time and time again on these forums and others we've recounted how bad most anomalies are and how worthless most null systems are. CCP gave it a pass when they buff the "EHP/isk ratio of anoms, but the only thing it did was made one lower end class of anomalies (Forsaken Rally Points) somewhat more viable. This is because they added more cruisers and battleships but didn't address the real problems (where the npcs spawn in the site, the fact that some sites have stupid triggers thus creating monster incoming dps situations that aren't worth the time to do because you entire ship is nothing but tank, etc etc).

That was 2011 the last time they did any work with null sec anomalies.. And the EHP/Isk 'buff that wasn't a buff' was in reaction to this change that created the Renters Desert sov null is today. If you think that no one (including CCP) knows how bad things are you're crazy. They do know, the ESS was a sort of back hand 'buff' of lower end anomalies (with loyalty points).

Look at any map of null. Count the rental alliances. People don't rent out things it would be more profitable for them to use themselves.

Quote:

Good active space is good for EVERYONE. But someone has to step up and start the work.
And EVE being EVE, without that hard data, everyone will assume you are rolling naked in isk and just wanting more. And it really seems like that is not the case.


Null anomalies generate something like 70% of the isk injected into the game. That seems like a lot and it is, but that's because you have people full time afking anomalies and people spread out so that they can get apiece of the 'good' anomalies.

The issue is mo0re complicated than 'null doesn't make enough space cash. You can (and I do) make a good space-living farming anoms and doing escalations from them. The problem is that you can make the same amounts easily in high sec, under certain conditions you can make MORE in high sec as an individual pilot than you can in null (mission farm setups where you use standings to get good missions form several agents and farm them for 7 days, or high sec shiny incursion fleets). You can make WAY more in low sec and wormholes too.

There was a time when you couldn't do better than to stumble upon a DED 10/10 in null. Hell, BELT RATTING was enough income to keep you in ships for pvp. Nowadays real pro PVE players avoid Sov Null like the plague . Sov null isk making isn't impossible, it's just a poor choice compared to, say, flying a stealth bomber in faction warfare and spamming missions, (they don't make 600 mil per hour anymore, but 200-300 mil per hour flying a stealth bomber is obviously superior to the 90-100 mil per hour a pirate battleship could generate in null...).

As long as player can make the same or better isk elsewhere, there is no need for people to 'settle' in null. Renters exist all over null because renters have pretty low standards when it comes to isk making (for a newer corp, renting makes sense because sov null ratting and mining does have a pretty low barrier of entry compared to other things like high sec incursions).



You are absolutely right.

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.
And understood the realities, that CCP are worked extremely hard, and are trying to do a massive amount of work, in all areas of space.
He did not do their job for them, but he assisted in making it possible to focus, clearly, and with all the knowledge they needed in one place.

It was not inconsiderable, it was a massive effort that took weeks. And it was worth it
All I suggest is it is a good, practical, example to follow, if you wish to achieve similar goals.

And I am personally very strongly in favour of all areas of space being worthwhile.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Speedkermit Damo
Death by Design.
#2362 - 2015-03-05 13:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Maybe it would be better just to get rid of Sov altogether.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2363 - 2015-03-05 13:59:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:

You mean like how defenders still need to take action against an RF item, even if it is uncontested?


No, not like that at all, or to put it a different way, exactly like that. Because if I only knock a chunk off the shields of a contemporary structure but fail to actually reinforce it, it replenishes itself on it's own and my work is undone.



Quote:

Tell me why the OWNERS should not be fully involved in saving their own things?


They are. They killed the guy doing it before he could finish.

Why should the attacker be allowed to have his influence linger after he's already dead?


If you don't have to tick it down, then you can have your SOV defended by your allies and never shop up yourself. This should not be supported. You want to hold SOV, you have to take care of it. Your blue can do the shooting all you want but you should keep it under your control.
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2364 - 2015-03-05 13:59:50 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Terence Bogard wrote:


I'd be satisfied if they only regened if they were above say, 85% and slowly at that.



Perhaps after the window ends. Maybe. It's only 10 minutes - nothing compared to a current structure repair.

But then, I think occupancy should be not system limited, perhaps a combination of adjacent systems values, or the sum thereof or similar.


Yeah i'm hoping there will be no binary capture window, I made a post detailing what I think would be a better system a few pages back. I guess the regen is more important in that scenario than in the propsed one.

I hadn't thought of that approach to occupancy but, it definitely warrants some thought.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2365 - 2015-03-05 14:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2366 - 2015-03-05 14:03:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If you don't have to tick it down, then you can have your SOV defended by your allies and never shop up yourself.


False.

Only if the attacker fails to complete a cycle. You know, just like how failing to reinforce a pos works right now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2367 - 2015-03-05 14:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Why should these modules be usable on Interceptors?

Simple, I am after a system maybe two, with all the resources around in all of the major alliances I may need to mask my real target, so having the ability to reinforce systems in different constellations of the region will enable me to reduce the enemy force that can come and stop my main attack. The interceptor will allow me to actually get into systems. If your people are not defending those systems or do not have a POS there then it's your issue and to cover your weaknesses by making people use a ship that is so easy to catch in gate camps or catch with bubbles enables you to be lazy and not protect the systems.

If you want to own the system you need to defend it, so yes to being able to use these modules on interceptors!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2368 - 2015-03-05 14:04:08 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
manufacturing, research, PI, pos reactors (not mining) and hacking mini-game sites should all contribute to the industrial index

If the activity has you in space and vulnerable, I don't see any reason for it not to be included in the Industry index.

Mining meets that criteria. PI to some extent - I'd prefer to see it based on export taxes or the like, to ensure that folks are actually out in space rather than sitting in station / POS extracting endlessly to produce "points" or whatever.

Manufacture and research I'm a lot less comfortable with - depending on the metric used, you could game the hell out of that kind of a system by mass producing and recycling cheap stuff. In addition, you're only vulnerable for a brief period of time during the manufacturing cycle - when you import the raw materials the first time.

Hacking... eh, maybe. I don't see that as an Industry function.

Basically, tying the defensiveness of a particular system to the activity in space is the design goal. Anything that allows you to game that by improving the defensiveness while AFK, in a POS, or in a Station should not be considered at all.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Gypsien Agittain
Gypsy Queens
#2369 - 2015-03-05 14:06:00 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
VolatileVoid wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
VolatileVoid wrote:
Too often read here about unoccupied space.

To clarify: The systems that are actually empty are not worth anything which is the reason why they are, were and will be empty.

If the new sov system goes live even the slighly better system that are just good for 3 corpmembers will be empty aswell because there is absolutely no way to be online for 4h each day with 3 members and defend against a 20 fleet.

A system with -0.8 for example is just good for 10 simultanous operating corpmembers.


Don't you rent quite a lot of these useless regions for many billions?


No we dont and does not change that they are useless.



This may very well be true, but can someone PLEASE provide accurate independent and most importantly public data to show exactly how good or bad this is.

For wormhole space Corbexx, our CSM spent days running sites in all classes of WH space to give accurate data that enabled CCP to rebalance lower class holes.

If you do the same, you hopefully will benefit from similar results.

Good active space is good for EVERYONE. But someone has to step up and start the work.
And EVE being EVE, without that hard data, everyone will assume you are rolling naked in isk and just wanting more. And it really seems like that is not the case.


There's no need for "data" when everybody who's not triple boxing carriers ratting, making highend industry or reactions is making less money that they will with factional warfare, incursions or even lvl4 missions done right.
They stay in null to hang with corpmates, pvp in massive fleets where we have fun sharing porn etc. Or to roleplay as provipeople.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2370 - 2015-03-05 14:09:09 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Why should these modules be usable on Interceptors?


I have two opinions on this:

If they add that the Entosis module disables prop mods in addition to warp drives, then everything should be able to fit it.

If they do not add that, then it's fitting requirements should be sufficiently harsh as to be out of reach of every frigate class ship.

The reason it should disable prop mods is to encourage this as a fleet and group activity for both parties, not just jousting around solo in an interceptor. This encourages fights instead of dicking around, conflict instead of whack a mole timer grinding.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2371 - 2015-03-05 14:09:48 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Why should these modules be usable on Interceptors?

Simple, I am after a system maybe two, with all the resources around in all of the major alliances I may need to mask my real target, so having the ability to reinforce systems in different constellations of the region will enable me to reduce the enemy force that can come and stop my main attack. The interceptor will allow me to actually get into systems. If your people are not defending those systems or do not have a POS there then it's your issue and to cover your weaknesses by making people use a ship that is so easy to catch in gate camps or catch with bubbles enables you to be lazy and not protect the systems.

If you want to own the system you need to defend it, so yes to being able to use these modules on interceptors!



There was a day when nothing could just warp out of a bubble, not that i was around to see it. I see no reason why arguably the most powerful module in the game should be able to be fit on something as elusive as an interceptor. If you want to escape bubbles use the mwd/cloak trick. If youre trying to get past a gate camp you will have to beat them. Its their system. They are active in it. You will have to fight them whether its on that gate or on their structure.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2372 - 2015-03-05 14:11:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If you don't have to tick it down, then you can have your SOV defended by your allies and never shop up yourself.


False.

Only if the attacker fails to complete a cycle. You know, just like how failing to reinforce a pos works right now.


Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.
Super Stallion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2373 - 2015-03-05 14:13:03 UTC
Over all, I think this is nice. I would modify one thing though.

I would split the capture module into two separate modules. One module is for sovereignty purposes. The other module is for any other purposes intended for this capture module. Please, retain increased cycle time for capitals.

The smallest ship class that can fit the sovereignty version of the module would be the battleship. The other module, not involved with sovereignty, can be fit by any ship class. With Battleships required for the sovereignty version of the module:

- strong counters to pure battleship fleets already exist, so battleship only fleets are infeasible. Mixed fleet types will
become mandatory for the actual task of attacking sov

- gives battleships a game mechanic reason to exist in the game

- battleships already have enough high slots to fit this module without overly gimping their effectiveness. we wont see
fleets with only ships that offer a utility high slot being viable in sov

- capitals that are capable of knocking out battleships will have a strong purpose again

- prevent attackers from harassing with a newb frigate/interceptor. If the goal is to simply harass, the attacker would be
required to place a reasonably tempting target on the field.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2374 - 2015-03-05 14:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2375 - 2015-03-05 14:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal..


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.


Umm, itll take more than just data to implement the null income changes. Especially when its needs to be balanced with hisec, and provide meaningful space content. There are a million factors to be considered and it may have to be coupled with an overall industry revamp. It will take time to do it right.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2376 - 2015-03-05 14:17:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2377 - 2015-03-05 14:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Terence Bogard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.


Umm, itll take more than just data to implement the null income changes. Especially when its needs to be balanced with hisec, and provide meaningful space content. There are a million factors to be considered and it may have to be coupled with an overall industry revamp. It will take time to do it right.


That, and the obscene income from goo. Just because grunts dont make trillions, sure as hell doesnt mean no-one down there is.

The SRPs ain't being funded by selling sisters probes Blink


But this is wildly off topic.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2378 - 2015-03-05 14:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.




Except it's not shields and the ENTIRE driving premise behind this is to get owners undocked and looking after their own stuff. It would be completely contrary to the core idea. This is further reinforced (no pun) by the fact if you do NOT defend an RF, it NEVER ends.

I would doubt that "We can't be arsed doing 9.9 minutes of work, but our sov should be held for us" is going to carry much weight tbh.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2379 - 2015-03-05 14:20:11 UTC
afkalt wrote:

That, and the obscene income from goo.


The better moons are worth about as much as a highsec ice miner. The worse ones less than that.

For the upkeep and book-keeping they require, they are just fine. There is absolutely nothing "obscene" about it.

Grr, Moons.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2380 - 2015-03-05 14:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Terence Bogard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.


Umm, itll take more than just data to implement the null income changes. Especially when its needs to be balanced with hisec, and provide meaningful space content. There are a million factors to be considered and it may have to be coupled with an overall industry revamp. It will take time to do it right.


I do agree, however if someone takes the time to collate accurate real income from these sources, and identifies precise areas where shortfalls are occuring, and specific issues with individual sites, that makes them troublesome and time consuming to do, then smaller iteriterative changes can be implemented, to help.

In wormhole space, very simple mechanics were introduced after the areas were identified and presented, that have had a significant improvement to livability in low class wormholes. It would be nice to see poor truesec, benefiting in the same way.

However if one waits, meekly, for CCP to do all the work, then it may be a long time before it rises to the top of the very r
Large work pile.

With player contribution and effort, iterative changes can be designed and implemented in a very short time, without disrupting other projects and tasks.

Help CCP to Help us.

Is that unreasonable?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE