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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2381 - 2015-03-05 14:22:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Except it's not shields


Yeah, it pretty much is. There is way more equivalency to be drawn here than not.


Quote:

and the ENTIRE driving premise behind this is to get owners undocked and looking after their own stuff.


Citation needed. Also, they are, that's why they killed the attacker and he failed to reinforce.

If I get blapped while shooting a pos and do not return, then I get nothing. The same should apply here. If they don't succeed their progress should be zero.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2382 - 2015-03-05 14:22:50 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Terence Bogard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

However, the difference is, someone took the effort, to combine that information, INTO ONE PLACE.


They. Know. This. Already.

Stop harping about your nonsense.


Clearly then, you have recently recieved large buffs to null income?

No?

Well, they either clearly do not, and require more data before implementing changes.

Or they have decided the balance is right.


I suspect that they require more data, we may be waiting a while then.


Umm, itll take more than just data to implement the null income changes. Especially when its needs to be balanced with hisec, and provide meaningful space content. There are a million factors to be considered and it may have to be coupled with an overall industry revamp. It will take time to do it right.


That, and the obscene income from goo. Just because grunts dont make trillions, sure as hell doesnt mean no-one down there is.

The SRPs ain't being funded by selling sisters probes Blink


But this is wildly off topic.


The rich get richer and the poor live off their srp scraps. This is eve.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2383 - 2015-03-05 14:23:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:

That, and the obscene income from goo.


The better moons are worth about as much as a highsec ice miner. The worse ones less than that.

For the upkeep and book-keeping they require, they are just fine. There is absolutely nothing "obscene" about it.

Grr, Moons.

I only had 2011 figures to work with but the R64s are worth somethign like 7 trillion a month.

WTB your ice mining ship

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Josef Djugashvilis
#2384 - 2015-03-05 14:23:52 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
I'm going to say I'm somewhat disappointed, but I shall return to comment after I go throw up.


Constructive feed back = best feed back.

This is not a signature.
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2385 - 2015-03-05 14:25:28 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:

That, and the obscene income from goo.


The better moons are worth about as much as a highsec ice miner. The worse ones less than that.

For the upkeep and book-keeping they require, they are just fine. There is absolutely nothing "obscene" about it.

Grr, Moons.

I only had 2011 figures to work with but the R64s are worth somethign like 7 trillion a month.

WTB your ice mining ship


I think we need a CCP release of all of the moons class and locations. I never had to worry about them before because i had no chance of even thinking about owning one, but now...
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#2386 - 2015-03-05 14:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Ugly Eric wrote:


And if the attacker speeds away? Contest won. GF.


except 99% of the time a good ceptor pilot fit for 1 purpose of sov laser griefing will undoubtedly be able to keep his distance from another aggressor on grid an stay within lock and sov laser range.

also remember that 1 attacking sov laser and 1 defensive sov laser only stops the progress towards reinforcement, and that progress can continue even after the 4 hour vulnerability window closes so long as the tug of war is still occurring.

in fact instead of the tug of war on initial reinforcement, how about a separate race to securing sov structures. where an aggressor has to upload a virus essentially by hacking the structure with a sov laser, which can take 12 minutes+ and a defender has to upload new virus definitions to the sov structure with his sov laser. the first to complete wins, with defensive indices reducing the defenders overall time needed to upload.

sov structures arent all networked together because lol tinfoil cylon-esque headhotting concerns and instead of this mind meld with computers (that we already have btw as capsuleers) its purely highly advanced malicious programs found in drifter hull debris thats being reverse engineered to allow others to break into once thought to be virtually impenetrable computer systems.

it also means CCP has a lore approach in making additional less brute force methods of reinforcing POS's in the future too.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2387 - 2015-03-05 14:28:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Why should these modules be usable on Interceptors?


I have two opinions on this:

If they add that the Entosis module disables prop mods in addition to warp drives, then everything should be able to fit it.

If they do not add that, then it's fitting requirements should be sufficiently harsh as to be out of reach of every frigate class ship.

The reason it should disable prop mods is to encourage this as a fleet and group activity for both parties, not just jousting around solo in an interceptor. This encourages fights instead of dicking around, conflict instead of whack a mole timer grinding.



Can be made in an even more elegant solution. Just make it use enough cap that a frigate will nto be able to keep a Prop mod on while using it. But for a cruiser that will not be a problem... and even less for larger ships.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2388 - 2015-03-05 14:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Except it's not shields


Yeah, it pretty much is. There is way more equivalency to be drawn here than not.


Quote:

and the ENTIRE driving premise behind this is to get owners undocked and looking after their own stuff.


Citation needed. Also, they are, that's why they killed the attacker and he failed to reinforce.

If I get blapped while shooting a pos and do not return, then I get nothing. The same should apply here. If they don't succeed their progress should be zero.



*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. I'm basically done arguing with you over this.


>>allies of the owner can provide support by shooting other players but if those allies activate their own Entosis links they will not pause enemy capture progress or do anything to return the structure to its owner’s control. This ensures that a defending alliance must show up personally to at least help with the defense of their territory, no matter how strong their allies are.

It's in the damned dev blog. You don't even need to read between the lines.

If it regenerates, this premise is broken.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2389 - 2015-03-05 14:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Terence Bogard wrote:
I think we need a CCP release of all of the moons class and locations. I never had to worry about them before because i had no chance of even thinking about owning one, but now...

I went on an old 2011 article saying about 10b / R64 / month and dotlan saying about 700 moons of that type.

Obviously the real figures are obfuscated by those owning them and controlling the prices of the products - I'd love to know how our CODE friend has any idea what he's talking about, last I checked they didn't need an untanked exhumer near them so he probably doesn't even know they exist.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Rex Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2390 - 2015-03-05 14:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rex Crendraven
afkalt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.




Except it's not shields and the ENTIRE driving premise behind this is to get owners undocked and looking after their own stuff. It would be completely contrary to the core idea. This is further reinforced (no pun) by the fact if you do NOT defend an RF, it NEVER ends.

I would doubt that "We can't be arsed doing 9.9 minutes of work, but our sov should be held for us" is going to carry much weight tbh.


Consequences should be enough tot keep people from touching a station, unless you are prepared tot face them.
But trollceptor has no consequences. Its cheap and easy.
Why not keep the idea but require a minimal commitment based on sec status. Scrap low sec NPC space and make it the roaming grounds for small gang PvP where entosis linkednsceptors can ref a station. But require in null sec that people bring bs or caps based on sec status.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2391 - 2015-03-05 14:33:13 UTC
Terence Bogard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Why should these modules be usable on Interceptors?

Simple, I am after a system maybe two, with all the resources around in all of the major alliances I may need to mask my real target, so having the ability to reinforce systems in different constellations of the region will enable me to reduce the enemy force that can come and stop my main attack. The interceptor will allow me to actually get into systems. If your people are not defending those systems or do not have a POS there then it's your issue and to cover your weaknesses by making people use a ship that is so easy to catch in gate camps or catch with bubbles enables you to be lazy and not protect the systems.

If you want to own the system you need to defend it, so yes to being able to use these modules on interceptors!



There was a day when nothing could just warp out of a bubble, not that i was around to see it. I see no reason why arguably the most powerful module in the game should be able to be fit on something as elusive as an interceptor. If you want to escape bubbles use the mwd/cloak trick. If youre trying to get past a gate camp you will have to beat them. Its their system. They are active in it. You will have to fight them whether its on that gate or on their structure.


Then those people are not protecting a system, they are protecting pipes or entry systems which negates what CCP is trying to do make people protect SYSTEMS, of course using WH's will get around it, but...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2392 - 2015-03-05 14:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed a reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.


Quote:

It's in the damned dev blog. You don't even need to read between the lines.


You really should learn to just read.

That paragraph is specifically referring to an allied group using an Entosis link in the middle of the fight to pause the completion of the attack.

Two entirely different things.


Quote:

If it regenerates, this premise is broken.


No, just the premise you made up out of whole cloth.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2393 - 2015-03-05 14:35:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Can be made in an even more elegant solution. Just make it use enough cap that a frigate will nto be able to keep a Prop mod on while using it. But for a cruiser that will not be a problem... and even less for larger ships.


Nope, wouldn't work.

It's on a long cycle time, and it only needs to work once. It would be just as binary, either the frigate would not have enough cap to activate it in the first place, or it would.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2394 - 2015-03-05 14:36:02 UTC
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.

It's all about how the SIDE is defined, if you can't understand this, there is no helping you.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2395 - 2015-03-05 14:36:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.


So up to a few hours depending how long my link was active to represent how long I was shooting at a POS?

The real way to prevent most of the trolling isn't to make the timer reset but to make the trolling harder to do. The 250km range on the T2 module is absurd. Why didn't they just make the T2 version's range just double from T2 or hell quadruple if you really must? No instead they introduced a module with 10 time the effective range. No wonder people are theorycrafting an epic amount of trolling with SOV when you can do it from the very limit of any targetting systems and also potentially be fitted to the most mobile kind of ships and people wonder why we might end up playing space tag...
Terence Bogard
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2396 - 2015-03-05 14:36:56 UTC
Rex Crendraven wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.




Except it's not shields and the ENTIRE driving premise behind this is to get owners undocked and looking after their own stuff. It would be completely contrary to the core idea. This is further reinforced (no pun) by the fact if you do NOT defend an RF, it NEVER ends.

I would doubt that "We can't be arsed doing 9.9 minutes of work, but our sov should be held for us" is going to carry much weight tbh.


Consequences should be enough tot keep people from touching a station, unless you are prepared tot face them.
But trollceptor has no consequences. Its cheap and easy.
Why not keep the idea but require a minimal commitment based on sec status. Scrap low sec NPC space and make it the roaming grounds for small gang PvP where entosis linkednsceptors can ref a station. But require in null sec that people bring bs or caps based on sec status.


Scrap low sec? I think not.
flakeys
Doomheim
#2397 - 2015-03-05 14:38:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Leaving grid even if your ship gets killed does not restore the shield back to 100%. You can come back just a few minutes later and continue from relatively the same point unless the POS owner repped it up.


If I am shooting at a pos and I get blapped, if I do not return the pos will regenerate it's own shields over time.

I would expect nothing less from the successor mechanic. Only the timeframe is really changing.


So up to a few hours depending how long my link was active to represent how long I was shooting at a POS?

The real way to prevent most of the trolling isn't to make the timer reset but to make the trolling harder to do. The 250km range on the T2 module is absurd. Why didn't they just make the T2 version's range just double from T2 or hell quadruple if you really must? No instead they introduced a module with 10 time the effective range. No wonder people are theorycrafting an epic amount of trolling with SOV when you can do it from the very limit of any targetting systems and also potentially be fitted to the most mobile kind of ships and people wonder why we might end up playing space tag...



Would be fun if they introduced this to FW though , hangin at 250km of the beacon Lol

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2398 - 2015-03-05 14:39:43 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Afraid not. Read the blog and the flow charts again, without adding your own parts or making bits up.


You first.

It does not mention the circumstance I am discussing. It says "in fights over an owned structure", indicating a fleet fight in progress. It then goes on to say that the ally force will not be able to add their own Entosis to the mix to try and help their ally by stopping the attacker's progress.

It does not say what happens if some solo trollceptor tries, gets blapped before he finishes, and I just leave.

And what I'm saying is that is should immediately reset or begin ticking down once any attackers using Entosis mods are dead.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2399 - 2015-03-05 14:41:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The real way to prevent most of the trolling isn't to make the timer reset but to make the trolling harder to do. The 250km range on the T2 module is absurd. Why didn't they just make the T2 version's range just double from T2 or hell quadruple if you really must? No instead they introduced a module with 10 time the effective range. No wonder people are theorycrafting an epic amount of trolling with SOV when you can do it from the very limit of any targetting systems and also potentially be fitted to the most mobile kind of ships and people wonder why we might end up playing space tag...



It is also hyperbolic FUD, these paper, "fast" ships will be torn apart at a moments notice by active pilots. Or simply ignored and blocked with their own links.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2400 - 2015-03-05 14:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
It's not worth it.