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Walking in stations

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1001 - 2015-07-30 10:50:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol. That wasn't WiS, that was WoD, along with many other failings.


No, it was outright ignoring the base game for years to focus development resources on WiS. Their having to play catch up to fix the game these past few years is that technical debt in action.



Quote:
It was simply stopped at one room because crybabies cried until they stopped developing it.


It was revealed as one room. The crowning achievement of literally years of wasted dev time... one room.

It was one room because that's the best they could do.


Quote:

The new UI pretty much killed the client for the first couple of patches.


And that was also a backflippingly bad idea. Notably, just like then, they don't bother listening to feedback, and they have to be screamed at before they backpedal on the bad idea.

Quote:

And no, it's was nowhere close to the worst optimization.


I have played Bethesda games better optimized than that, and that's saying a lot.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1002 - 2015-07-30 11:11:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, it was outright ignoring the base game for years to focus development resources on WiS. Their having to play catch up to fix the game these past few years is that technical debt in action.
Lol, just no. Screenshots or it didn't happen. At this point you are just pulling "facts" out of your ass and acting like that's the way things are. I'm not going to say that WiS didn't contribute to the situation, but it certainly wasn't even a leading cause of the problems EVE had.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It was revealed as one room. The crowning achievement of literally years of wasted dev time... one room.

It was one room because that's the best they could do.
It started as one room, and it ended because people lost their minds because for the most part people don't understand the work that goes into building the technology behind that room.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that was also a backflippingly bad idea. Notably, just like then, they don't bother listening to feedback, and they have to be screamed at before they backpedal on the bad idea.
Was it though? The new UI is now fine, and the improvements they've made to it make it much easier for them to expand on the UI than it ever was. You're simply too shortsighted to see the benefits. You want instant benefits.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I have played Bethesda games better optimized than that, and that's saying a lot.
Not really, your claims of it being the worst optimization are simply unfounded. Did it have issues when it came out? Sure. Did it get rapidly fixed? Yes. There are games that are still unplayable because the level of bad in them. Then there's your classic examples, like Skyrim's insane loading times when you've played more than 20 hours or so, The Witches atrocious data access leading to constant delays in loading resources and Assassins Creed Unity with it being so bad at launch they gave away free DLC to make up for it.

I get it though, you hate WiS so you're going to have an unreasonably biased opinion. In your mind everything they did was terrible. Objectively that's not the case, it's simply not what a lot of the community at the time wanted and was a lot of work. Now with the community being quite different (MT are acceptable now, who knew?) the development processes being significantly improved as well as the fact that a lot of the groundwork is already done, it's far more reasonable to consider.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
#1003 - 2015-07-30 11:56:22 UTC
WiS without meaningful gameplay (ie. making ISK) will always be a useless strain on videocards.

CCP can only make it work with a completely new gameplay that actually has the possibility to become a viable career. (Smuggling comes to mind).

That being said, Avatar gameplay could enhance the game as a whole big time. If it is done EVE style.
Instead of the archeology minigame it would be way cooler to be able to dock and explore the wreckage yourself possibly fighting off rivals or pirates.

It is my opinion EVE needs this new content to survive in the long run.
There will be other open ended, space sim sandboxgames that will implement space and avatar content. I don't think SC can pull it off but ED can.

This game urgently needs new content. (space and other)
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1004 - 2015-07-30 11:56:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lies.


1. that the development of WiS took place at the expense of existing problems with the game going unfixed is common knowledge. We don't need pics, I linked Hilmar's apology above. Read it before lying again.

2. Work that, as stated above, could have gone into fixing broken things that didn't get touched. Instead of fixing broken things, they gave us a room. No one lost their minds, they were righteously outraged at being given a new monorail with one station instead of getting the potholes in their roads fixed. That's an analogy, btw, in case you didn't figure it out.

3. It was disgusting, that's not a claim, it's a fact. It was forced, no more ship hangar, you had to load into CQ. So people who met the min requirements to fly spaceships in space suddenly couldn't meet the requirements to load CQ, and couldn't play because that's where you got logged in to. Forget the shoddy optimisation, let's talk about people who couldn't play the game at all when they'd been playing just fine the day before, and could be playing just fine if CQ wasn't forced on everyone

I've seen disingenuous from all walks of life, but you set one hell of a benchmark. Well done. Just when I thought scientologists couldn't get any more desperate to retain members, Lucas Kell comes along to show them how it's done.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1005 - 2015-07-30 12:24:13 UTC
Misconceptions here:

1 that CCP allocated resources from EvE to WIS depriving EvE of resources.

2 that a poor implementation on an idea means the idea was bad.

3 that the "majority of players didn't want WIS"


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1006 - 2015-07-30 12:52:31 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lies.
Rewriting quotes like that is against the rules.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
1. that the development of WiS took place at the expense of existing problems with the game going unfixed is common knowledge. We don't need pics, I linked Hilmar's apology above. Read it before lying again.
I didn;t say it wasn't part of it, I simply disagree with your assertion that it was such a big and enduring impact, and certainly don't believe it would be the case should they choose to pick up WiS now.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
2. Work that, as stated above, could have gone into fixing broken things that didn't get touched. Instead of fixing broken things, they gave us a room. No one lost their minds, they were righteously outraged at being given a new monorail with one station instead of getting the potholes in their roads fixed. That's an analogy, btw, in case you didn't figure it out.
Some part may have done, sure. Others didn't. They still released other patches and fixes during that time. Even Incarna itself also came with NPE changes, the JB changes and a revamp to dogma among other things.

And yes, people lost their minds. I've never before and never since seen such disgraceful displays of entitlement as that. People freaked the **** out over their game not receiving as much content - for free - as they hoped for that expansion.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
3. It was disgusting, that's not a claim, it's a fact. It was forced, no more ship hangar, you had to load into CQ. So people who met the min requirements to fly spaceships in space suddenly couldn't meet the requirements to load CQ, and couldn't play because that's where you got logged in to. Forget the shoddy optimisation, let's talk about people who couldn't play the game at all when they'd been playing just fine the day before, and could be playing just fine if CQ wasn't forced on everyone
Oh boo ******* hoo. For a few days you had to look at a room when you docked and if you had a PC that was below the stated minimum requirements for the game you had trouble playing. There is always going to be a risk of that happening if you choose to try to squeeze an MMO onto a machine barely capable of handling it in low settings.

I bet you were one of those that went mental when they stopped you ship spinning too, right?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1007 - 2015-07-30 13:03:30 UTC
Solkara Starlock wrote:
WiS without meaningful gameplay (ie. making ISK) will always be a useless strain on videocards.

CCP can only make it work with a completely new gameplay that actually has the possibility to become a viable career. (Smuggling comes to mind).

That being said, Avatar gameplay could enhance the game as a whole big time. If it is done EVE style.
Instead of the archeology minigame it would be way cooler to be able to dock and explore the wreckage yourself possibly fighting off rivals or pirates.

It is my opinion EVE needs this new content to survive in the long run.
There will be other open ended, space sim sandboxgames that will implement space and avatar content. I don't think SC can pull it off but ED can.

This game urgently needs new content. (space and other)


Agreed. And by "new content" it means "something never done before", not something that was done years ago and is being imitated.

Sovereignty 3.0 is useless to those who never played Sov.
Incursions 2.0 are useless to those who never played Incursions.
POSes 2.0 are useless to those who never owned a POS.
Wormholes 2.0 are useless to those who never played WH.

And those above, are not just "uncool" veteran players. Those above are the definition of every future player of EVE Online.

Who wants to compete with 12 years old veterans doing some updated version of some sh*t they learned to do years ago when it was actually new?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1008 - 2015-07-30 13:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Remiel Pollard wrote:
(...) In EVE, your ship is your avatar (...)



False. EVE has always had humanoid avatars, unique and individual, to compensate for the fact that ships are impersonal tools and the average human being won't attach to them.

In Elite: Dangerous, your ship IS your avatar, and that sucks so badly that I haven't even downloaded the game yet. I can't convince msyelf to give up Ish or my other girls for a stupid Eagle that will look exactly like each other bloody Eagle in the universe... Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1009 - 2015-07-30 13:18:40 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Yes it was and yes it did. You even said so yourself in the same paragraph you tried to claim it didn't: "WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage."
lol, what they release was not WiS. It was one room and no involvement with other players. One room it's important to add that many people used. There were even people customising their video screens in there. To claim that what they got out was enough to prove that WiS didn't work is disingenuous.


Not being able to produce something is pretty much the definition of it not working.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1010 - 2015-07-30 13:28:33 UTC
This thread about a dead topic is an example of why stupid and bad things keep happening in real life too.

It's because people stick to their beliefs rather than analkyse actual data and learn from history. In this particular case, many overly optimistic "Immersion gamer" type people who can't learn not only from CCP's past, but things like "PlayStation Home" and Cloud Imperium/Star Citizen's current problems with Star Marine. And because they can't learn, they advocate for a situation that would REPEAT FAILURE because CCP (as wonderful as they are) just isn't the company to deliver the kind of product these unrealistic people claim to want.

It's not unlike how in real life sometimes I've watch our friends go back into a bad relationship again, time after time "in hopes that it will be wonderful this time" despite year after year after year of evidence that it just doesn't work. And no it doesn't matter that you will "just do things a little different this time" lol,.

If CCP couldn't make this idea work at the height of it's power as a company, why do some of you think they can and should do so now? Have none of you ever entertained the idea that CCP could not survive another such major failure (which is why CCP decided to play it safe)? Have all of you failed to notice that EVERYTHING CCP tried that wasn't space ships failed or fizzled? Ambulation/EVA gameplay, planetary interaction (underwhelming), flying in atmosphere, DUST and the EVE-DUST link, WoD.

The smart thing for CCP is to say "ok, lets do spaceships" and leave the rest of it alone.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1011 - 2015-07-30 13:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Yes it was and yes it did. You even said so yourself in the same paragraph you tried to claim it didn't: "WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage."
lol, what they release was not WiS. It was one room and no involvement with other players. One room it's important to add that many people used. There were even people customising their video screens in there. To claim that what they got out was enough to prove that WiS didn't work is disingenuous.
Not being able to produce something is pretty much the definition of it not working.
I'd agree, except that's not what happened here. Clearly the were able to produce it, they built the system behind it and the room itself with a nice view of your docked ship and interactive components, and all of that works very well. They didn't stop because they were unable to make a second room, they stopped because some of their overly entitled players threw a wobbly because it wasn't what they wanted. If they took a real shot at building WiS I think they'd do a good job of it and while some people wouldn't care about it's existence (like some don't care about asteroid fragments) a lot of people would like it and use it.

I liked the casino in TDU 2 too, even though it wasn't directly involving the racing of cars.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lan Wang
Pandemic Alpha
#1012 - 2015-07-30 13:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
jenn hit it on the head.

Its sorta like fps's these days, take call of duty for example and compare it to battlefield, cod was if not still the biggest game of that kind, but you cant drive vehicles in cod, battlefield you can, and blow buildings up, this is a prime example that the game doesnt need that sort of thing to be successful, and for everyone to say "we need wis to compete" no we dont.

@Lucas - being able to produce a small room looking at something static does not mean they can produce the rest of the interaction based stuff and content

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1013 - 2015-07-30 14:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lan Wang wrote:
jenn hit it on the head.

Its sorta like fps's these days, take call of duty for example and compare it to battlefield, cod was if not still the biggest game of that kind, but you cant drive vehicles in cod, battlefield you can, and blow buildings up, this is a prime example that the game doesnt need that sort of thing to be successful, and for everyone to say "we need wis to compete" no we dont.


Exactly. And CoD works so well for the same reason EVE (and Tanks and other games) do, they focus on what they are rather than trying to be all things to all people.

I mention Tanks and other games like Mechwarrior for a reason, because I saw the same things in both. When is infantry coming in tanks (this despite umpteen million infantry games on the market) and Why can't we have Elemental Infantry and Aerospace Fighters in Mechwarrior?!?!? lol.

EVe should always be squarely focused on spaceships. Sure a few "everything" type games work (like Battlefield), but they were designed that way from the start, EVE wasn't.

A comprehensive "World of New Eden" game with space ships and walking around and atmospheric flight etc would need to be start from scratch with that stuff in mind, trying to jury rig new crap on to an old game like (spaceships and spreadsheets) EVE is stupid, and we've seen his time and again for 12 years.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1014 - 2015-07-30 14:09:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
If CCP couldn't make this idea work at the height of it's power as a company, why do some of you think they can and should do so now?
There was a lot they couldn't (or wouldn't attempt to) achieve back then. Times change friend.

Jenn aSide wrote:
The smart thing for CCP is to say "ok, lets do spaceships" and leave the rest of it alone.
And yet they are still losing both players and devs and spaceship mechanics aren't progressing anywhere near as well as they should be.

Lan Wang wrote:
for everyone to say "we need wis to compete" no we dont.
Battlefield arguably does need vehicles to compete, since other than that there's little reason to choose it over CoD. That said I'm not saying it's needed to compete, but it certainly would be nice to have. I'd like EVE to get to a point where it's entertaining enough that I don't feel the need to play PS4 on the side whenever I'm playing EVE. When I play Elite, I play Elite and that's that.

Lan Wang wrote:
@Lucas - being able to produce a small room looking at something static does not mean they can produce the rest of the interaction based stuff and content
It doesn't mean they can't either. And consider how much ground work has to go into that one room. The rendering of the avatars, movement, collision, map rendering, interaction with the environment. A lot of that would be carried over to any new development they did for WiS.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lan Wang
Pandemic Alpha
#1015 - 2015-07-30 14:18:32 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
If CCP couldn't make this idea work at the height of it's power as a company, why do some of you think they can and should do so now?
There was a lot they couldn't (or wouldn't attempt to) achieve back then. Times change friend.

Jenn aSide wrote:
The smart thing for CCP is to say "ok, lets do spaceships" and leave the rest of it alone.
And yet they are still losing both players and devs and spaceship mechanics aren't progressing anywhere near as well as they should be.

Lan Wang wrote:
for everyone to say "we need wis to compete" no we dont.
Battlefield arguably does need vehicles to compete, since other than that there's little reason to choose it over CoD. That said I'm not saying it's needed to compete, but it certainly would be nice to have. I'd like EVE to get to a point where it's entertaining enough that I don't feel the need to play PS4 on the side whenever I'm playing EVE. When I play Elite, I play Elite and that's that.

Lan Wang wrote:
@Lucas - being able to produce a small room looking at something static does not mean they can produce the rest of the interaction based stuff and content
It doesn't mean they can't either. And consider how much ground work has to go into that one room. The rendering of the avatars, movement, collision, map rendering, interaction with the environment. A lot of that would be carried over to any new development they did for WiS.


yeah it doesnt mean they cant but can they produce it to as high quality to the likes of similar games like mass effect, i pick mass effect because they done it right and it worked in which i would imagine most of the people in here would be expecting the wis route to go down, wis would be first, then walking in ships, then walking on planets, then fps mode where you can shoot stuff, it all gets very complex and turns into a massive game thats not about spaceships

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1016 - 2015-07-30 14:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Lucas Kell wrote:
Another Epic Essay


Honestly, I feel like you're intentionally trying to miss the point now.

1. Read Hilmar's apology. If you've already read it, read it again, because I'm not asserting anything that isn't in that apology, or the numerous articles that came out about it all over the internet.

2. You are intentionally ignoring what I'm saying, so I'll put it in simple terms for your simple mind: no matter how you try to spin it, Incarna blew off **** the game needed for **** it didn't need. People are allowed to get outraged about that. You might be a doormat, but most people aren't walked over so easily. Deny this fact all you want, but again, it's in the apology, and the articles. CCP DIRECTLY ADMITTED that they dun goofed here.

3. Again, you aren't reading. You need to read, it's important. I didn't say people whose computer specs didn't meet the minimum, I said people whose computer specs DID meet the minimum now could no longer load the game because CQ was a resource hog, and you damn well know it. And don't stand there like some elitist ****-stain less precious than dried *** on bedsheets and pretend like people missing out on their PAID FOR ******* GAME TIME is something you can "boo hoo" at them about. I've seriously picked things more precious than you from my foreskin for that little bit of obnoxious stuck-up dismissal. And I'll remember it the next time you're on the forums complaining about something not working. Rest assured, I have excellent memory.

End of the day, it doesn't matter how much work has to go into something, if it isn't released right, it ain't gonna work. This is the same bullshit excuse they keep coming out with for buggy and incomplete game releases, and I don't buy it, ever. If it needs more work, then put more work in before releasing it, simple as that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1017 - 2015-07-30 14:28:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
There was a lot they couldn't (or wouldn't attempt to) achieve back then. Times change friend.
-
And yet they are still losing both players and devs and spaceship mechanics aren't progressing anywhere near as well as they should be.


I am not your friend, you don't have people like you for friends.

And spaceship mechanics are fine. I think is was some Gevlon article that suggested that any decline in EVe was from high sec, meaning mostly casual types to begin with, meaning no big loss.

But below is the main point:

Quote:
Battlefield arguably does need vehicles to compete, since other than that there's little reason to choose it over CoD. That said I'm not saying it's needed to compete, but it certainly would be nice to have. I'd like EVE to get to a point where it's entertaining enough that I don't feel the need to play PS4 on the side whenever I'm playing EVE. When I play Elite, I play Elite and that's that.


While you are plainsong other games because you don't think EVE is entertaining enough, I'm playing 3 EVE accounts and a buddy with another 2 accounts at once. Like last night in wicked creek, I got an escalation, so we rolled out (me in my Tengu and Machariel) to go hit that will I left the 3rd toon 'at home' ratting Forsaken Rally Points and Hubs an FoF missile Raven.

While in the 10/10 a neutral guy comes in, and I notice combat scanner probe. The mach could get out easy because it had a MJD, but the tengu was scrammed so I had to switch to precision missiles to kill the scrams (and got a lucky hit on one elite frig from the mach) to get both ships out before the guy in the Confessor could track me down. I was able to cloak both ships and my buddy did the same with his 2 ships and the Confessor eventually F'd off for easier meat. We pulled an X-Type XL Shield Booster and some other knick-knacks out of that plex btw.

While I'm fighting to evade that confessor, i hear someone trying to lock my Raven I left ratting (this is why I use sound). I tab over to the Raven (i only have 2 monitors) and there is a freaking CROW coming at me, but I was 150 off the anom beacon (cruise missiles are great) and more than 75km so he had to burn, I MJD'd the raven out then warped and barely survived. Don't ask me why he tried to lock me form so far out, but I'm glad he did lol.

After it all my blood is really pumping, I didn't die, they didn't get any kills and I got nice loot and unlike you I had zero need or desire to be playing something else while playing EVE.
And yet rather than understand that the lack of entertainment you experience from EVE is all about you (not the fact that CCP doesn't like you walk around in short shorts in a space station), you think CCP should do something for you because "it would be nice".





Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1018 - 2015-07-30 14:35:29 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Misconceptions here:

1 that CCP allocated resources from EvE to WIS depriving EvE of resources.

2 that a poor implementation on an idea means the idea was bad.

3 that the "majority of players didn't want WIS"


While you may be right on items 2 and 3, item 1 is not a misconception, CCP blew at least 18 months of development time on WIS which would have been far better spent to fix what was broken in the base game of FIS.

People wanted the WIS they had been promised, not what was delivered.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Lan Wang
Pandemic Alpha
#1019 - 2015-07-30 14:36:30 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
End of the day, it doesn't matter how much work has to go into something, if it isn't released right, it ain't gonna work. This is the same bullshit excuse they keep coming out with for buggy and incomplete game releases, and I don't buy it, ever. If it needs more work, then put more work in before releasing it, simple as that.


slightly off topic, they sorted that whole situation out by ceasing to release demos and now all this "early access" bull so they can get away with releasing broken games/demos that you pay for. its a sad state these days

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#1020 - 2015-07-30 14:44:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

It's because people stick to their beliefs rather than analkyse actual data and learn from history.


a tad pessimistic it seems. one failure is not a sufficient basis to "learn from history" and contradicts the Batman quote "why do we fall...". However, whether or not CCP could deliver is something I have no idea about.