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Walking in stations

First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#981 - 2015-07-30 08:35:35 UTC
It was as much about one as it was the other, and to belittle those that felt **** on by the unnecessary development at the expense of fixing existing problems is to be a **** person. That is all. Say no to drugs.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#982 - 2015-07-30 08:47:38 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It was as much about one as it was the other, and to belittle those that felt **** on by the unnecessary development at the expense of fixing existing problems is to be a **** person. That is all. Say no to drugs.

If you want to rewrite history go ahead. Some people like being delusional.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#983 - 2015-07-30 08:53:24 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If you want to rewrite history go ahead. Some people like being delusional.


Don't talk to yourself.

The summer of rage was about the literal years of wasted dev time that CCP flushed down the drain playing Space Barbies every bit as much as it was about pay to win.

You're the one spinning, trying to draw a narrative more favorable to the agenda that you're trying to push, like the dishonest chav you are.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#984 - 2015-07-30 09:05:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It was as much about one as it was the other, and to belittle those that felt **** on by the unnecessary development at the expense of fixing existing problems is to be a **** person. That is all. Say no to drugs.

If you want to rewrite history go ahead. Some people like being delusional.


I'm not rewriting anything. Just read some of the articles about it, and Hilmar's apology, in which captain's quarters is the very first thing he subtitles, followed by virtual goods. Again, IZ, bullshit yourself all you like, but don't try to bullshit me. I have the evidence that proves what really happened, and it's easy enough to find with a simple google search that you have absolutely no excuse for your lying. None at all.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#985 - 2015-07-30 09:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EvE history doesn't indicate yay or nay on WIS. The popular myth is the Summer of Nerd-Rage was about WIS but it was not, it was primarily about Greed is Good.


Greed is Good was about Walking in Stations. People now try to claim WiS and the NeX were all completely independant features which 'just happened' to get shipped in the same expansion, but thats misrepresenting the truth; they were shipped together because they were co-dependant. CCP came to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that the only mileage WiS had was as a window to a cash-shop. That was the reason for the rage, that after all that time wasted they baited-and-switched us, instead of a fully-functional gameplay expansion (that we were barely tolerating the neglect in order to recieve), all we got for a year and a half of complete neglect was microtransactions. Have you forgotten literal years of EvE WiS proponents discussing all the possibilities about player-made clothing? Hell, the idea of player stores still comes up to this day it was such a wanted feature within avatar-player circles. The NeX and microtransactions highjacked half the potential features WiS could have had, stillbirthing the whole concept.

We human beings have selective memories, and any recollections of those events are going to be selective "it was feature x I hated that caused the summer of rage, feature y I liked just got caught in the crossfire". But that's a lie, it was all to blame as it all contributed to the hilarious pile of garbage we got served called Incarna. Greed is Good wouldn't have even been noticed if not for the prices of the Nex items, which wouldn't have caused a ripple if player-made clothing had been an existing alternative, which might have been possible had Walking in Station had any gameplay element what so ever. But it didn't, and that's where we ended up.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#986 - 2015-07-30 09:18:43 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
It was as much about one as it was the other, and to belittle those that felt **** on by the unnecessary development at the expense of fixing existing problems is to be a **** person. That is all. Say no to drugs.

If you want to rewrite history go ahead. Some people like being delusional.


I'm not rewriting anything. Just read some of the articles about it, and Hilmar's apology, in which captain's quarters is the very first thing he subtitles, followed by virtual goods. Again, IZ, bullshit yourself all you like, but don't try to bullshit me. I have the evidence that proves what really happened, and it's easy enough to find with a simple google search that you have absolutely no excuse for your lying. None at all.


I wasn't here at the time. Reading Hilmar it seems as WiS never happened. Just maybe community feedback would have been different if there had been some content.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#987 - 2015-07-30 09:22:42 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EvE history doesn't indicate yay or nay on WIS. The popular myth is the Summer of Nerd-Rage was about WIS but it was not, it was primarily about Greed is Good.


Greed is Good was about Walking in Stations. People now try to claim WiS and the NeX were all completely independant features which 'just happened' to get shipped in the same expansion, but thats misrepresenting the truth; they were shipped together because they were co-dependant. CCP came to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that the only mileage WiS had was as a window to a cash-shop. That was the reason for the rage, that after all that time wasted they baited-and-switched us, instead of a fully-functional gameplay expansion (that we were barely tolerating the neglect in order to recieve), all we got for a year and a half of complete neglect was microtransactions. Have you forgotten literal years of EvE WiS proponents discussing all the possibilities about player-made clothing? Hell, the idea of player stores still comes up to this day it was such a wanted feature within avatar-player circles. The NeX and microtransactions highjacked half the potential features WiS could have had, stillbirthing the whole concept.

We human beings have selective memories, and any recollections of those events are going to be selective "it was feature x I hated that caused the summer of rage, feature y I liked just got caught in the crossfire". But that's a lie, it was all to blame as it all contributed to the hilarious pile of garbage we got served called Incarna. Greed is Good wouldn't have even been noticed if not for the prices of the Nex items, which wouldn't have caused a ripple if player-made clothing had been an existing alternative, which might have been possible had Walking in Station had any gameplay element what so ever. But it didn't, and that's where we ended up.

It was more about golden ammo than about pointless avatar gear actually

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#988 - 2015-07-30 09:28:00 UTC
embrel wrote:

I wasn't here at the time. Reading Hilmar it seems as WiS never happened. Just maybe community feedback would have been different if there had been some content.


That's the part that always makes me laugh.

There will NEVER be any meaningful content arising from WiS. There could never be. It's the same problem they had with Captains Quarters, when they took away the old docking interface with it.

The only way that WiS will ever have meaningful content is if you attach an in game advantage to it. Without that, it is strictly inferior to the dock system. It's slower, clunky, lacking in useful menus, and the control scheme is put to shame by even a Commodore 64.

But if you give it an in game advantage, then you have locked that out for the people who just plain hate WiS, and that's even more unacceptable. You'd be punishing people merely for their preferred choice of interface, and that's not just bad game design, that's downright horrible game design.

Not only will it never have anything meaningful attached to it, it should never either. The only real choice is to kill the mechanic entirely. But CCP takes great delight in their sunken cost fallacies and unfinished features, so instead they're stringing it along until they are forced to face the inevitable. But refusal to face the truth does not change it. WiS is dead, and rightly so.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#989 - 2015-07-30 09:39:30 UTC
Desslok VonReich wrote:
All those items listed add to the immersion of EVE. And fit within the context of a capsuleer experience.

WiS does not. A bunch of dudes in a bar playing poker does not.
In your opinion is doesn't. In mine, a bunch of capsuleers meeting up in station drawing up battle plans with avatars and playing minigames within the station certainly does add to the immersion. Certainly more than the snazzy graphics which are usually turned down low and zoomed out too far to see, or the gripping music I've not heard since the day I unticked the "enable audio" box.

Desslok VonReich wrote:
I would love to solved the WiS dilemma, and think of that must-have game play that justifies the development cost.
Justification for the development cost only requires projected income. Whether it's "must-have" or not, if people are willing to pay for it or if it will bring more people in, it's justified.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
WIS was tried. It failed. That really is the bottom line.
No it wasn't and no it didn't. WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage. Amusingly though, that same crowd whined about microtrans and those got cancelled too. But look at the game now, MT all over the place and growing. Clearly times change friend.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#990 - 2015-07-30 09:39:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

EvE history doesn't indicate yay or nay on WIS. The popular myth is the Summer of Nerd-Rage was about WIS but it was not, it was primarily about Greed is Good.


Greed is Good was about Walking in Stations. People now try to claim WiS and the NeX were all completely independant features which 'just happened' to get shipped in the same expansion, but thats misrepresenting the truth; they were shipped together because they were co-dependant. CCP came to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that the only mileage WiS had was as a window to a cash-shop. That was the reason for the rage, that after all that time wasted they baited-and-switched us, instead of a fully-functional gameplay expansion (that we were barely tolerating the neglect in order to recieve), all we got for a year and a half of complete neglect was microtransactions. Have you forgotten literal years of EvE WiS proponents discussing all the possibilities about player-made clothing? Hell, the idea of player stores still comes up to this day it was such a wanted feature within avatar-player circles. The NeX and microtransactions highjacked half the potential features WiS could have had, stillbirthing the whole concept.

We human beings have selective memories, and any recollections of those events are going to be selective "it was feature x I hated that caused the summer of rage, feature y I liked just got caught in the crossfire". But that's a lie, it was all to blame as it all contributed to the hilarious pile of garbage we got served called Incarna. Greed is Good wouldn't have even been noticed if not for the prices of the Nex items, which wouldn't have caused a ripple if player-made clothing had been an existing alternative, which might have been possible had Walking in Station had any gameplay element what so ever. But it didn't, and that's where we ended up.

It was more about golden ammo than about pointless avatar gear actually


Only one sentence this time? Your lies aren't getting the same effort as usual. I sense your resolve crumbling around you. Op success.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#991 - 2015-07-30 09:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Lucas Kell wrote:


Remiel Pollard wrote:
WIS was tried. It failed. That really is the bottom line.
No it wasn't and no it didn't. WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage. Amusingly though, that same crowd whined about microtrans and those got cancelled too. But look at the game now, MT all over the place and growing. Clearly times change friend.


Yes it was and yes it did. You even said so yourself in the same paragraph you tried to claim it didn't: "WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage." It launched, and no one wanted it. I even posted links. Try keeping up, or keep failing, your choice. You're right, times change, and so too should EVE, but the very definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results. EVE needs to do things different from other MMOs, it needs to be unique. I don't mind new things, I just don't want the same things I can find elsewhere.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#992 - 2015-07-30 09:47:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
embrel wrote:

I wasn't here at the time. Reading Hilmar it seems as WiS never happened. Just maybe community feedback would have been different if there had been some content.


That's the part that always makes me laugh.

There will NEVER be any meaningful content arising from WiS. There could never be. It's the same problem they had with Captains Quarters, when they took away the old docking interface with it.

The only way that WiS will ever have meaningful content is if you attach an in game advantage to it. Without that, it is strictly inferior to the dock system. It's slower, clunky, lacking in useful menus, and the control scheme is put to shame by even a Commodore 64.

But if you give it an in game advantage, then you have locked that out for the people who just plain hate WiS, and that's even more unacceptable. You'd be punishing people merely for their preferred choice of interface, and that's not just bad game design, that's downright horrible game design.

Not only will it never have anything meaningful attached to it, it should never either. The only real choice is to kill the mechanic entirely. But CCP takes great delight in their sunken cost fallacies and unfinished features, so instead they're stringing it along until they are forced to face the inevitable. But refusal to face the truth does not change it. WiS is dead, and rightly so.

None sense. You could say the same about ship models or station art. EvE could be played with coloured dots and labels representing ships. All interfaces from stations could be accessed via space with ships becoming immune to in space interaction rather than docking. Fact is immersion is a huge part of any mmo.

You have no idea of human psychology as it relates to MMOs. I suggest you google Simlife and try to figure out some of that psychology before you post again in this thread. WIS does not need to provide EvE space benefits however a successful WIS will provide finances for in space development because people love a place to dock up and run around / chat / dance / trade that's not relate to the core gameplay of their MMOs.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#993 - 2015-07-30 09:51:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


You have no idea of human psychology as it relates to MMOs.


And neither do you. Bottom line is, no one wanted it in EVE, as per the links provided already. Again, you talk about EVE as if it's just like every other MMO, and even if you do know psychology, what you don't know is EVE, so anything you think you know is irrelevant anyway.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#994 - 2015-07-30 09:52:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

None sense. You could say the same about ship models or station art.


First of all, nonsense is one word. Secondly, no, because those things contribute to the actual game. WiS does not, and never will.


Quote:

You have no idea of human psychology as it relates to MMOs.


Look everyone, he's a psychologist now too. Any more made up credentials you'd like to try?


Quote:
WIS does not need to provide EvE space benefits however a successful WIS will provide finances for in space development because people love a place to dock up and run around / chat / dance / trade that's not relate to the core gameplay of their MMOs.


Except that it's observably the opposite. CCP's having wasted time and development resources seriously hurt the game, and saddled them with a technical debt that they are still trying to pay off. It cost them tons of money, caused enormous layoffs, and was one of the biggest gaffes in the gaming industry until Star Scam, er I mean Star CItizen got started up.

WiS is a money hole, and you want CCP to throw some more down that hole. You are, as with everything, a fool.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#995 - 2015-07-30 09:52:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
[quote=embrel]
The only way that WiS will ever have meaningful content is if you attach an in game advantage to it. Without that, it is strictly inferior to the dock system. It's slower, clunky, lacking in useful menus, and the control scheme is put to shame by even a Commodore 64.

But if you give it an in game advantage, then you have locked that out for the people who just plain hate WiS, and that's even more unacceptable. You'd be punishing people merely for their preferred choice of interface, and that's not just bad game design, that's downright horrible game design.


Of course it'd need an in-game advantage. Some way to make ISK I guess; some content.

I always imagined it as sort of 2 games in one universe.

Not all players need to take part in all forms of content. I don't perceive it as punishment that I don't mine as an example.

However, it's quite academic. I seriously doubt that WiS is coming alive except in necrothreads.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#996 - 2015-07-30 09:54:43 UTC
embrel wrote:

I always imagined it as sort of 2 games in one universe.



That's part of the problem. I don't want my client bloated with content I'll never use. There are already games out there with what's being asked for, play them instead.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#997 - 2015-07-30 10:21:09 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Yes it was and yes it did. You even said so yourself in the same paragraph you tried to claim it didn't: "WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage."
lol, what they release was not WiS. It was one room and no involvement with other players. One room it's important to add that many people used. There were even people customising their video screens in there. To claim that what they got out was enough to prove that WiS didn't work is disingenuous.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
It launched, and no one wanted it.
Clearly that's not the case, otherwise these thread would not exist and wouldn't get so long when they appear.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
EVE needs to do things different from other MMOs, it needs to be unique. I don't mind new things, I just don't want the same things I can find elsewhere.
You are 100% correct, and mixing a tactical space shooter with a 3rd person RP heavy space station sim would be pretty different. At the moment it's just a bad attempt to mimic Elite, which with the release of the actual Elite sequel seems a bit silly. It's clear that the existing game elements are unlikely to become more immersive going forward and they already have half the tech needed for WiS in there, so I would have no issue with them pressing forward with it as long as development continued on the main mechanics too. Back when the originally looked at WiS that might have been a tough ask, but it's something they are more than capable of now they have they new development and release mechanism.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#998 - 2015-07-30 10:27:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Yes it was and yes it did. You even said so yourself in the same paragraph you tried to claim it didn't: "WiS barely got off the ground before the usual crowd started exploding with rage."
lol, what they release was not WiS. It was one room and no involvement with other players. One room it's important to add that many people used. There were even people customising their video screens in there. To claim that what they got out was enough to prove that WiS didn't work is disingenuous.
[/quote]

One room they used because they HAD to. It was FORCED, or did you leave that part out intentionally? The point is, it was done half-arsed at the expense of fixing existing problems, so everything you just said literally supports an argument AGAINST WiS.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#999 - 2015-07-30 10:29:57 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

One room they used because they HAD to. It was FORCED, or did you leave that part out intentionally?


He also left out the part where it was frying graphics cards, overheating CPUs, crashing the client from memory leaks, and a bunch of other problems caused by some of the worst optimization ever seen in the industry.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1000 - 2015-07-30 10:39:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except that it's observably the opposite. CCP's having wasted time and development resources seriously hurt the game, and saddled them with a technical debt that they are still trying to pay off. It cost them tons of money, caused enormous layoffs, and was one of the biggest gaffes in the gaming industry until Star Scam, er I mean Star CItizen got started up.

WiS is a money hole, and you want CCP to throw some more down that hole.
lol. That wasn't WiS, that was WoD, along with many other failings.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
lol, what they release was not WiS. It was one room and no involvement with other players. One room it's important to add that many people used. There were even people customising their video screens in there. To claim that what they got out was enough to prove that WiS didn't work is disingenuous.
One room they used because they HAD to. It was FORCED, or did you leave that part out intentionally? The point is, it was done half-arsed at the expense of fixing existing problems, so everything you just said literally supports an argument AGAINST WiS.
Even when they didn't HAVE to, people continued to use it. People still use it now. And it wasn't half-arsed, in itself it works very well. Half-arsed would be something like a partially untextured room and no interactive components. It works perfectly well, looks good and a lot of people do like it. It was simply stopped at one room because crybabies cried until they stopped developing it.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
One room they used because they HAD to. It was FORCED, or did you leave that part out intentionally?
He also left out the part where it was frying graphics cards, overheating CPUs, crashing the client from memory leaks, and a bunch of other problems caused by some of the worst optimization ever seen in the industry.
You mean like how nearly every big patch they release is followed by masses of fixes? The new UI pretty much killed the client for the first couple of patches. And no, it's was nowhere close to the worst optimization.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.