These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Ancillary Shield Boosters... again
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-02-02 10:56:37 UTC
Our little corp recently held a T1 frigate tournament on SISI. (T1 non-faction frigates, meta-0 modules, drones and ammo).

The winning ship (I won't say pilot, because there was no skill involved) was a dual MASB maulus. I was operating it. Even when completely neutralised it was easily able to tank every other ship that came at it - even well flown ones.

This was saddening for a few reasons:

a) Any counter that my corp-mates could think up were invalidated:- ecm, neutralisers, speed tanking and so on. The only 'draw' was against a dual-prop rifter which survived to the time limit by evasion. It was in no danger of ever winning.
b) The maulus was not using any of its intended bonuses.
c) Other ship's bonuses were invalidated.

What this says to me is that my corp-mates were not fighting me or my ship, they were merely fighting the impenetrable might of the dual-ASB.

The utter dominance of the dual ASB fit generated some conversation in the corp which was followed by a flurry of EveHQ fitting activity.

This yielded incredible and in our view, overpowered monstrosities such as the dual XLASB myrmidon and EOS (!!!) [examples below]

It seems to me very wrong that a ship with bonuses to armour tanking performs better when shield tanked than when armour tanked.

I think we'd all appreciate a word from the devs as to when this anomaly will be fixed.

My view is that the ASB should be weaker, or limited to 1 per ship. It is well known that a dual XLASB is (barring the 4 seconds of inter-reload time) equivalent to an XLSB plus SBA, with no cap requirement.

The argument I have seen against my position is that fitting dual-ASB compromises the fitting options of ships due to the high CPU requirement. However, the reality seems to be somewhat different. For example, who on earth would fly a rattlesnake into honest to goodness combat with an XLSB, when dual XLASB frees up a mid slot (no cap booster required) and yields a better, neutraliser-resistant tank?

I cannot see "working as intended" being a valid response to this post. In all but the rarest cases, dual-ASB fits completely overshadow any other fitting option. This does not, in my view, increase fitting diversity but actually decreases it.

The EOS is here to illustrate a point, and in reality one would be unlikely to encounter one.

The dual-asb myrmidon is especially interesting to me. It utterly overshadows a self-tanked armour myrm. It's faster, harder-hitting, stronger tanking and will last longer due to the efficiency of burning navy 400 cap boosters rather than the 800s its armour counterpart would need to burn.

The only 'compromise' is the lack of a web so arguably a vanilla dual/triple-rep armour myrm with scram/web could (eventually) escape.

Escape, but not overcome, and I believe that this is a crucial point that causes ASB to be damaging to the enjoyment of Eve.

Some example fits:

[Eos, asb]

4x 200mm AutoCannon II (Hail S)
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
Small Nosferatu II

2x X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Internal Force Field Array I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
2x 'Dyad' Co-Processor I
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II

2x Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

5x Ogre II

(943 dps permatank using self as shield harmoniser, 845dps output - look, no resist mods!)


[Myrmidon, asb]

5x 200mm AutoCannon II (Hail S)

2x X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
3x Co-Processor II
2x Drone Damage Amplifier II (typical armour myrm will have 1 or 0 damage mods)

2x Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II

4x Ogre II

(850 dps tank, 727dps output)

The dps and tank numbers are of course with one overheated shield booster running. This is valid since:
a) The heat generated is not dangerous to the modules
b) alternating ASBs allows for an almost seamless emulation of 1 ASB with no reload requirement.

The dual MASB frigate fits are well known. I'm sure I needn't go on. Suffice to say that even with non-navy cap boosters my little maulus was able to store 91 boosters in the cargo hold plus 7 in each booster. A total of 15 minutes of 130dps (totally tech 1) frigate tanking. It's more like 170dps with T2 mods.

In summary, if this is really "working as intended" then:
a) I'll be a monkey's uncle
b) This would indicate a disconnect between the dev team responsible and the enjoyment of the player base.

Since I am not a monkey's uncle and I am sure the devs love the game as much as we do, we must conclude that the current situation is an error which ought to be fixed in the next patch.

Until this is fixed, you will get no tears from me. I will simply be in dual-asb ships when brawling solo (unless you encounter me in a deimos or sacrilege).

/MC

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Jack Morrison
Team Liquid crp.
#2 - 2015-02-02 11:13:15 UTC
They were really really OP when they got out and hence were nerfed a bit.

What is the issue bro ? ASBs being powerful in small gang fights ? (like a tri-rep hyperion) Well that is the point.

As soon as your enemy has a few alpha ships or even just a few dps ships focusing fire on you - it's game over.

I would say - there is nothing to see here, move along!

Looking for a group to pew with ? Have a chat with me.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#3 - 2015-02-02 11:16:18 UTC
Why would you host the tournament on the Test server.

It was only frigates.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#4 - 2015-02-02 11:26:00 UTC
That EOS would last all of a minute against someone even remotely competent. You have a grasp of the numbers and the math, but you don't understand the situational factors involved with the module's usage. Tell me, do you run both of the boosters at the same time?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Serene Repose
#5 - 2015-02-02 11:34:22 UTC
Prepare to be bogged down in minutia. Shocked

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-02-02 11:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
No, the maths are done with one booster at a time.

I actually do understand the situational factors involving small gang combat.

Of course I fully appreciate that the EOS is a lolfit (it's there to prove a point more than anything).

And of course I fully appreciate that a gang can overcome a single dual-ASB-fitted ship... and therein lies the problem. It requires a gang!

Then there's the demotivating factor than an armour tanking-bonused-ship performs better in its role when ASB-tanked.

Surely I am not the only person to see a problem with this?

I will requote myself for emphasis:

The winning ship (I won't say pilot, because there was no skill involved) was a dual MASB maulus. I was operating it. Even when completely neutralised it was easily able to tank every other ship that came at it - even well flown ones.

This was saddening for a few reasons:

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-02-02 11:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
It would seem the playerbase would be on the side of not having their victories suspect - it wasn't your training, it wasn't your skills, it wasn't your ship choice or build, other than the two ASBs that gave you the killmail. (For instance.) It's the same with webbing and scramming, those two are why you win, and no other reason. THEN so-called "cap warfare", that ONE mod lets you win, not your skill. THEN ... whatever that single mod is. AND you KNOW it's there. Don't pretend.

Also, don't try arguing it is that one lick of wisdom you had to slot that ONE thing. Why have all the other mods, and ships, if they suffer from advanced sucktitude *ISH-tar!" (sorry, I sneezed) from ONE mod or ONE ship. It's a lot of computer programming for nothing. EVEN THE DEVS should have a major problem with this sort of thing.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#8 - 2015-02-02 12:44:02 UTC
Part of the skill of PvP is fitting. And fitting for what you are likely to come up against. I see no real problem here. Your cap charges won't last forever, its not uncommon to brawl till the first person runs out of charges or paste.

And as pointed out before, without buffer you now have a pretty big weakness with any decent alpha.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#9 - 2015-02-02 13:00:21 UTC
Once you start making up your own limitations for fights ("you can only use frigates") you are bound to run into an issue you can no longer solve with the ships still available. How is this surprising? Lol
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#10 - 2015-02-02 13:08:15 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Once you start making up your own limitations for fights ("you can only use frigates") you are bound to run into an issue you can no longer solve with the ships still available. How is this surprising? Lol

not only limiting to frigs, but also meta 0 modules, to make sure the dps would for sure be tankable
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-02-02 13:16:19 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
time limit


Just pointing out the main reason it didn't die.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-02-02 13:24:35 UTC
Speaking as someone who *has* flown a PVP rattlesnake (and tried to fight another one with a Kronos), If your hardeners get neuted out, you're in deep trouble against battleship-sized DPS unless you gimp your highslots (and pg/cpu) with heavy NOS.
Arla Sarain
#13 - 2015-02-02 13:29:17 UTC
Killing the mauluses drones shouldn't have been a challenge, they are not bonused for anything and there is 4, so unless the maulus has a full rack of drone amps the DPS would be far more manageable.
Dual MASB mauluses have no web. Or have a web but no tackle.

Orbit at 500. Won't hit a thing with turrets if it has any.

kite at 6000 if it has neuts.

Maulus runs out of charges.
Shailagh
6Six6Six6Six
#14 - 2015-02-02 13:59:56 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Our little corp recently held a T1 frigate tournament on SISI. (T1 non-faction frigates, meta-0 modules, drones and ammo).

I think we'd all appreciate a word from the devs as to when this anomaly will be fixed.


(Hail S)


, if this is really "working as intended" then:
a) I'll be a monkey's uncle
b) This would indicate a disconnect between the dev team responsible and the enjoyment of the player base.
ilege).



I agree. Fix this anomaly, must be severe discommect wit devs....


HAIL SUX YO
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2015-02-02 14:18:11 UTC
I think this is what researches call confirmation bias (or some iteration of)

You claim ASB are overpowered - and the evidence is from a test where only small, low dps ships (frigates) are used along with the weakest (meta 0) weapons. In addition to the anemic damage present in the trial, you also throw in a time limit - thus mitigating the biggest flaw of running an ASB: running out of charges.

Come back when the time and meta limits are gone and assault frigates are used.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-02-02 14:30:09 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Prepare to be bogged down in minutia. Shocked


Heh, sure the forums are the severest form of PVP Big smile

I have not yet seen a coherent argument for ASBs being in balance.

Here is a summary so far:

* Given enough time you will be killed.
A: sure, but only by something that can last the distance, such as another ASB-fitted ship.

* You can be alpha'd by a bigger ship.
A: you don't say. This means that the ASB allows a smaller ship to punch above its weight, for zero cost. Since no other form of tank allows this, other than a gist deadspace tank (at a cost of somewhere between 500m and 1bn isk), it follows that no other form of tank is viable, at least in solo pvp.

* part of PVP is about the fitting
A: yes... but since this fitting option is well known and a clear encounter-winner, EVE solo pvp becomes a very short game, since it follows that the only fit will be dual-asb.

* Your example does not count since it only allowed T1 frigates and modules.
A: The dual medium ASB fit is ubiquitous in FW space on TQ for precisely the reason that it offers an unbeatable tank that locks down aggressors to be killed at leisure by corpmates. It is a trap from which there is no escape whatsoever, which means that no skill is being exercised or tested. This makes it uninteresting after the first use, therefore bad for the game. Note that the T2 version of the maulus dual ASB tanks something like 170dps. Stick an afterburner on there in place of an MWD, and you can magnify that. And it's cap stable, with a hold big enough for a motherload of navy boosters.

* other irrelevant noise such as "hail sucks"
A: Irrelevant. Stay on topic.

* You suck (not seen it yet, but it's coming)
A: Ah, I see you are someone who enjoys hanging around in a dual-abs ship, dragging people to their doom. Well, here's the news, so am I. And people like you and me using this technology makes the game suck for others, which if allowed to continue will accelerate the falloff of the player base leaving us no-one left to shoot.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#17 - 2015-02-02 14:39:23 UTC
You've got plenty of other arbitrary limitations in place (meta 0, time limits, no faction), why not ban the ASB too? The only real problem here is that the ancillary shield booster fits in your meta 0 rule because there are no alternative versions. It's definitely on par with Tech II or faction modules in power.

Fix your tournament rules, problem solved.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-02-02 14:48:14 UTC
Majuan Shuo wrote:
I think this is what researches call confirmation bias (or some iteration of)

You claim ASB are overpowered - and the evidence is from a test where only small, low dps ships (frigates) are used along with the weakest (meta 0) weapons. In addition to the anemic damage present in the trial, you also throw in a time limit - thus mitigating the biggest flaw of running an ASB: running out of charges.

Come back when the time and meta limits are gone and assault frigates are used.


I'll cover the time limit first.

There was only one fight which got as far as the time limit. That was the dual-prop rifter which could slip out from under the scram. Of course outside scram range it could not even hope to hurt the maulus. Thus the best result it could hope for was evasion. The rifter (flown by a very experienced pilot, 8 years in the game) was in structure from trying to pop the maulus, which was only on its second cycle (out of 9) of ASB with zero armour or hull damage.

It's not difficult to keep drones alive at brawling distances. You just keep pulling them every few seconds. Time is on the side of the ASB guy.

Even without drones I had 60dps from the auto cannons. Easily enough to destroy the rifter before it could hope to use up all my boosters.

There is another comparison of time - which is how long it takes an ASB ship to go through charges as compared to an armour tanker. The facts are unequivocal - the ASB is less efficient so in theory the ASB pilot ought to burn through charges faster and die first. However the reality is that the ASB ship (certainly in BCs and bigger) can almost always fit cargo hold expanders since the ASB's cpu requirement is not so draconian as to require filling the lows and rigs with CPU mods. It doesn't hold true in reality.

"evidence is from a test where only small, low dps ships"

Now that's not really fair. The tournament has prompted the (re)ignition of the discussion. It's not the only data point.
Can you really tell me that you'd rather field a dual-rep armour myrm (or even a triple rep one) against a dual-asb version? The numbers are clear. You'd lose it. The dual-asb will tank all your damage and return more than your cap boosters will ever allow you to dissipate. The ASB pilot could even afford to fit a small neut, just to make your day even less pleasant.

I am truly ready to change my view if given a complete argument that offers a reasonable counter to the ASB fit. By reasonable I think we have to discount, "bring more pilots" or "bring a bigger ship".

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-02 14:49:31 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
You've got plenty of other arbitrary limitations in place (meta 0, time limits, no faction), why not ban the ASB too? The only real problem here is that the ancillary shield booster fits in your meta 0 rule because there are no alternative versions. It's definitely on par with Tech II or faction modules in power.

Fix your tournament rules, problem solved.


Now we're getting close.

It's actually equivalent to deadspace modules in power - for the cost of a meta-0 module.

Does this not suggest, you know, imbalance?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Serene Repose
#20 - 2015-02-02 14:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Once you start making up your own limitations for fights ("you can only use frigates") you are bound to run into an issue you can no longer solve with the ships still available. How is this surprising? Lol
Not to pick on you (mercilessly Blink), this thought at first glance seems to make sense. Call out some frigates, the dessies have to come runnin', then the cruisers...BSs....AVALANCHE OF TECH!
War Kitten wrote:
Fix your tournament rules, problem solved.
As does this one - just change the parameters and the square peg DOES fit in the round hole!

However, without parity between race classes of vessels, and a strong measure of competitiveness between the various frigates (for instance) in measure/countermeasure fashion, someone is OP and someone is a nerfball. Balance, Daniel Sahn. Balance. We're after a certain amount of player skill being the deciding factor - all things being even.

I appreciate the spirit in which you offer your comments, but I think (though it seems to make sense) adopting these views is accepting the need for a homogenious, "this is the only gear that will do" aspect to the game like so many other MMOs suffer from. It may be this cultural/sensory memory from other games that hampers the ability to follow this condition of gaming.

EVE isn't supposed to be a "this is THE gear, all else is junk" game, is it?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
123Next pageLast page