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Ancillary Shield Boosters... again
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Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2015-02-02 18:44:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Stitch, you realise what you've just said though right? The counter to a dual MASB frigate is a ship one class higher - a destroyer.
Similarly an effective counter to a dual-asb battlecruiser is a battleship.
The counter to a dual (or triple) ASB battleship is... a marauder...
I think this illustrates nicely what is wrong with the dual-asb setup in its current form.

Except in real life, most ship classes were designed to hunt and kill stuff of a lower class, and outrun anything bigger than it (before everything became escorts to carriers). When two ships of a similar class, similar tonnage, and similar armamants fought each other, it was fairly even at times (assuming one didn't get the drop on the other) and sometimes both sides withdrew, calling it a "draw".
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#42 - 2015-02-02 18:49:14 UTC
One ASB per ship limit.

The Tears Must Flow
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-02-02 19:19:54 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Stitch, you realise what you've just said though right? The counter to a dual MASB frigate is a ship one class higher - a destroyer.


Welcome to EVE on TQ, where I can bring whatever I want to rain on your 1v1 elite pvp...
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#44 - 2015-02-02 19:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Jack Morrison wrote:
They were really really OP when they got out and hence were nerfed a bit.

What is the issue bro ? ASBs being powerful in small gang fights ? (like a tri-rep hyperion) Well that is the point.

As soon as your enemy has a few alpha ships or even just a few dps ships focusing fire on you - it's game over.

I would say - there is nothing to see here, move along!


When was the last time you fought a triple xlasb (minmatar missile command ship)? It's really not that simple. I've seen these things tank multiple battleships worth of damage pretty much indefinitely.

Fastest way to fix asb problems? Reduce cargo capacity as a penalty. By like 30% per module. Also they dontt actuslly function correctly. I remember from design notes that an xlasb loaded with 400s still required 400cap per cycle from the ship to work meaning you either sported 800s and ran capless or you ran 400s and still risked veing capped out.

So in that respect I think asbs were broken on delivery for that reason alone. They have options for what size booster you load them with because they were designed around it mattering.

If not a cargo bay reduction then at least patch them to require the largest booster ammo they can fit ie xlasb take 800s only. Lasb take 400 and masb take 200. Should have been done a long time ago.



How much dps is that triple ASB command ship doing? those battleships could just sit there till it dies. Not all fights in eve have to be over in 30 seconds.


OH thats right the minmatar missile command ship with 3 xlasb's doesn't fit. put a rack of HAM II's on it and it takes all the low slots and rig slots to make it fit. with 69cpu and 79 powergrid left to fit 3 mids. Sure it will active take a lot but with only 436 dps ( 160 is drones) and no prop its a sitting duck.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#45 - 2015-02-02 19:48:22 UTC
what the smeg is going on here? Dual ASBs are not a new thing and are so not over powered at all. People who dual deal with this all the time.

Whats next, triple rep myrm has too much reps?

Seriously get out a bit. Fly it into a real PvP, let us see how well you do.

If the only time something is "overpowered" is in a artificial 1v1 with meta 0 (seriously WTF). ASB are balanced against all mods not just fekin meta 0.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-02-02 19:57:45 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
what the smeg is going on here? Dual ASBs are not a new thing and are so not over powered at all. People who dual deal with this all the time.

Whats next, triple rep myrm has too much reps?

Seriously get out a bit. Fly it into a real PvP, let us see how well you do.

If the only time something is "overpowered" is in a artificial 1v1 with meta 0 (seriously WTF). ASB are balanced against all mods not just fekin meta 0.


A triple rep myrm has to make compromises in order to get its fantastic (very short term) tank. triple reps means dual boosters, small guns and zero damage mods. In fact the tank requires 4 mods and 3 rig slots. The ship is in all other respects, totally gimped so this is a bad example.

A better example would be the dual-rep hyperion which is actually one of the few ships to be better at armour tanking than dual-asb-ing. Another would be the deimos (which is insane) and sacrilege (not quite as insane).

See also the comparison between dual-asb and SB+cap booster on the previous page. The ASB is supposed to be a "quick recharge to cap for skirmishers" but in actual fact it displaces ordinary shield boosters as a logical choice for a local tank, as well as obsoleting natural armour tankers. The dual-asb myrmidon is a good example of this, offering superior sustained tank and dps over the armour tanked version.

Please don't think I'm theory crafting. I have had my share of pvp over the past 4 years. I fully understand the importance of speed, distance, alpha, transversal.

And the ASB with undersized charges is still wrong.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#47 - 2015-02-02 20:00:58 UTC
And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.

Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.

Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2015-02-02 20:04:29 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.

Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.

Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason.


You'll be glad to learn that math is my strong point. If you dual-asb your vargurs they will actually last longer in pvp.

This is because ASBs use cap more efficient than all shield boosters other than Gist. This is why gist shield boosters are an order of magnitude more expensive than every other.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2015-02-02 20:05:39 UTC
Exactly. Comparing how an item does in a bound and defined tournament to actual usage in EVE is bad, and you should feel bad. Might as well say 1400s are the best weapons ever and everyone should use them always after looking at a Tornado does sniping a shuttle at 50+km.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-02-02 20:08:16 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Exactly. Comparing how an item does in a bound and defined tournament to actual usage in EVE is bad, and you should feel bad. Might as well say 1400s are the best weapons ever and everyone should use them always after looking at a Tornado does sniping a shuttle at 50+km.


Oh I can assure you that I feel terrible Big smile

I'm sorry, I don't follow the argument.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#51 - 2015-02-02 20:08:43 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.

Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.

Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason.


You'll be glad to learn that math is my strong point. If you dual-asb your vargurs they will actually last longer in pvp.

This is because ASBs use cap more efficient than all shield boosters other than Gist. This is why gist shield boosters are an order of magnitude more expensive than every other.



Its called logi. they make cap out of thin air (guard/basi) or are cap stable (the other 2) They rep more efficiently they an asb or shield booster ever will.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-02-02 20:12:52 UTC
As a side note, I don't know that I'd go around telling folks that your corp mates died en masse to a shield repping Malus....
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-02-02 20:13:45 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.

Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.

Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason.


You'll be glad to learn that math is my strong point. If you dual-asb your vargurs they will actually last longer in pvp.

This is because ASBs use cap more efficient than all shield boosters other than Gist. This is why gist shield boosters are an order of magnitude more expensive than every other.



Its called logi. they make cap out of thin air (guard/basi) or are cap stable (the other 2) They rep more efficiently they an asb or shield booster ever will.


So external reps then. Therefore tangential argument to the thread and irrelevant.

Of course logi beats all. It involves more players!

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#54 - 2015-02-02 20:16:45 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
And a dual ASB has to make compromises on fit. FFS stop playing in safe box and get out there and PvP... tell me how many fights you own. Lets see some proof of there OPness.

Cycle time, 3 sec. 9 charges, 1 min reload, do the math. They are *not* OP or everything would be a ABS fit.

Hell our corp doesn't use them on our t3s or vagurs for a reason.


You'll be glad to learn that math is my strong point. If you dual-asb your vargurs they will actually last longer in pvp.

This is because ASBs use cap more efficient than all shield boosters other than Gist. This is why gist shield boosters are an order of magnitude more expensive than every other.



Its called logi. they make cap out of thin air (guard/basi) or are cap stable (the other 2) They rep more efficiently they an asb or shield booster ever will.


So external reps then. Therefore tangential argument to the thread and irrelevant.

Of course logi beats all. It involves more players!



well then stop putting artificial restrictions on fitting and see how op your ASB's are?
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#55 - 2015-02-02 20:19:41 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
As a side note, I don't know that I'd go around telling folks that your corp mates died en masse to a shield repping Malus....



He forced them to only fit meta 0 items (some of the hardest to fit and most useless Items) so of course the ship with dual asb with 4 drones is either going to last out the timer of the fight or win.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-02-02 20:43:25 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
As a side note, I don't know that I'd go around telling folks that your corp mates died en masse to a shield repping Malus....



He forced them to only fit meta 0 items (some of the hardest to fit and most useless Items) so of course the ship with dual asb with 4 drones is either going to last out the timer of the fight or win.


Oh I thought it was just t1 fits. Missed the meta 0 requirement. ASB's are meta 1......
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#57 - 2015-02-02 21:02:34 UTC
If ASB are so over powered. Show me the kills.

You can't because they are not. They give a awesome burst tank, but a burst is all and dual, well if your bursting its still going to run out.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#58 - 2015-02-02 22:05:34 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Ned Thomas wrote:
As a side note, I don't know that I'd go around telling folks that your corp mates died en masse to a shield repping Malus....



He forced them to only fit meta 0 items (some of the hardest to fit and most useless Items) so of course the ship with dual asb with 4 drones is either going to last out the timer of the fight or win.


Oh I thought it was just t1 fits. Missed the meta 0 requirement. ASB's are meta 1......



Dang your are right. He was cheating after all.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#59 - 2015-02-03 02:08:19 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Jack Morrison wrote:
They were really really OP when they got out and hence were nerfed a bit.

What is the issue bro ? ASBs being powerful in small gang fights ? (like a tri-rep hyperion) Well that is the point.

As soon as your enemy has a few alpha ships or even just a few dps ships focusing fire on you - it's game over.

I would say - there is nothing to see here, move along!


When was the last time you fought a triple xlasb (minmatar missile command ship)? It's really not that simple. I've seen these things tank multiple battleships worth of damage pretty much indefinitely.

Fastest way to fix asb problems? Reduce cargo capacity as a penalty. By like 30% per module. Also they dontt actuslly function correctly. I remember from design notes that an xlasb loaded with 400s still required 400cap per cycle from the ship to work meaning you either sported 800s and ran capless or you ran 400s and still risked veing capped out.

So in that respect I think asbs were broken on delivery for that reason alone. They have options for what size booster you load them with because they were designed around it mattering.

If not a cargo bay reduction then at least patch them to require the largest booster ammo they can fit ie xlasb take 800s only. Lasb take 400 and masb take 200. Should have been done a long time ago.



How much dps is that triple ASB command ship doing? those battleships could just sit there till it dies. Not all fights in eve have to be over in 30 seconds.


OH thats right the minmatar missile command ship with 3 xlasb's doesn't fit. put a rack of HAM II's on it and it takes all the low slots and rig slots to make it fit. with 69cpu and 79 powergrid left to fit 3 mids. Sure it will active take a lot but with only 436 dps ( 160 is drones) and no prop its a sitting duck.


Well if we want to continue to use your own extremely flawed logic: what is bait?
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2015-02-03 02:19:54 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Jack Morrison wrote:
They were really really OP when they got out and hence were nerfed a bit.

What is the issue bro ? ASBs being powerful in small gang fights ? (like a tri-rep hyperion) Well that is the point.

As soon as your enemy has a few alpha ships or even just a few dps ships focusing fire on you - it's game over.

I would say - there is nothing to see here, move along!


When was the last time you fought a triple xlasb (minmatar missile command ship)? It's really not that simple. I've seen these things tank multiple battleships worth of damage pretty much indefinitely.

Fastest way to fix asb problems? Reduce cargo capacity as a penalty. By like 30% per module. Also they dontt actuslly function correctly. I remember from design notes that an xlasb loaded with 400s still required 400cap per cycle from the ship to work meaning you either sported 800s and ran capless or you ran 400s and still risked veing capped out.

So in that respect I think asbs were broken on delivery for that reason alone. They have options for what size booster you load them with because they were designed around it mattering.

If not a cargo bay reduction then at least patch them to require the largest booster ammo they can fit ie xlasb take 800s only. Lasb take 400 and masb take 200. Should have been done a long time ago.



How much dps is that triple ASB command ship doing? those battleships could just sit there till it dies. Not all fights in eve have to be over in 30 seconds.


OH thats right the minmatar missile command ship with 3 xlasb's doesn't fit. put a rack of HAM II's on it and it takes all the low slots and rig slots to make it fit. with 69cpu and 79 powergrid left to fit 3 mids. Sure it will active take a lot but with only 436 dps ( 160 is drones) and no prop its a sitting duck.


Well if we want to continue to use your own extremely flawed logic: what is bait?


In this case? Apparently something that should die after about 30 seconds if you know what to do.