Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I virtually never comment in forums while reading and enjoying the comments of others, but this is a case where I must voice my opinion.

UNCLOAKED recons invisible to dscan??!! That's one of the worst ideas I've seen yet! For so long whspace has simply been ignored by CCP. Now instead of ignored whspace dwellers are being given the royal shaft with this insane idea.

A past post wrongly assumed any recon would have to probe someone down before attacking and that dscan would pick up the combat probes, thus alerting the careful whspace dweller. Has that person been in a wormhole lately? Various site/sig types require no probing, nor do customs offices where the PI transfer occurs. A probe launcher isn't required to find and attack ships in such locations. All this soon-to-be super recon has to do is warp from site to site without fear of discovery or ever having to drop a probe and strike. And as we all know, standard combat sites are a favorite due to the simplicity of running them, particularly in C1-C3 sites where solo PvE can be done.

It's even worse for whspace miners since gravs no longer require probing. I'm sitting here in my corp's POS able to warp to multiple grav sites without launching a single probe or using bookmarks.

So it now appears that unless the recon is specifically and visually seen entering the wormhole they won't be discovered. They or their fleet of recons can decloak, use no cloak, or whatever they wish so long as they aren't on grid. The only exception is the second or two that the present cov-ops cloak capable recons are on dscan prior to recloaking.

The need for cloaking will be drastically reduced. I realize there are other reasons to cloak, but a primary use is (or was) to avoid dscan. Well, apparently not anymore if this recon change idiocy occurs.

I realize Pirates and other gankers love the idea, and good for them. I wish them enjoyment in EVE and realize they are more numerous than those of us who simply want the freedom and flexibility of whspace life. Since their numbers are large I suspect EVE will cater to them and the big Sov alliances just as they always have at the expense of others.

When will CCP ever begin to really care about those of us who live and play in whspace? This idea is a serious issue to those like myself who wouldn't even play EVE if not for whspace. Now we have less of a reason to continue.

With this upcoming change the term "site running" in whspace will have a new meaning. It will now be defined as dscan invulnerable recon gankers running from site to site free from one of their primary obstacles ... DSCAN

I think this is a bad idea; that said, I will take full advantage of it hoping they take it out.
I think that the people saying that FW gates will be camped are simply uncreative, it's so much worse if you are inventive. Many people won't do anything if there are hostiles in system that aren't on scan at all. The logical move from there is to dump an empty ship somewhere, something people won't consider valuable enough to combat scan so that they never notice the recons.

So, the most logical move is to put down a procurer and one venture for each additional recon so miner count and local match with a can on the warp in point on the belt. Hot droppers won't usually aim at something that likely to escape, cloakys mostly warp to zero in low/null because of the random rocks that want them dead, and solo ships are just doomed.

If the plan is for every nice looking d-scan to be vetted by combat probes fights are gonna suck.

No, no it does not. The DSCAN immunity is redundant and gimmicky. As many proponents for DSCAN immunity have argued it is basically just the same as a cloak (except you don't have to fit it...but on the other hand you can't evade gate camps as easily)

It really doesn't make any sense to do DSCAN immunity, using a cloak is DSCAN immunity, why do we need a gimmick on a hull type that desperately needs a unique role and t2 resists would give it that.

With this iteration you won't see recons used in new roles, you'll just see them used in niche ganking scenarios where you might have seen their cloaky brothers instead.

Well stated Mr. Gera! Very well indeed.

T2 resists on the non-CovOps cloak capable recons would be a much better direction.

And yes, all this will produce is a new iteration or variation of ganking.

As a dedicated wormhole dweller the proposed recon ship changes are exceedingly troublesome to see. It will very significantly impact wormhole operations in a bad way. I'm not whining (well, maybe I am). I'm simply lamenting the sadly common "who cares" attitude that CCP seems to apply to dedicated whspace dwellers.

You are whining that you will be facing increased risk. You are also whining because you intentionally overstated your case in your first post on this page.

The only thing your posts make me wonder is why you even live in holes if you are so afraid of other people. You can do your pve with much less risk elsewhere.

Ditto. ESPECIALLY "...I just know it's not what is healthy for the game. ..."

That's the point. In the grand scheme of things with all player styles considered the proposed recon DSCAN invulnerability is a step in the wrong direction.

If ship rebalancing or usage is the goal, DSCAN immunity is a mistake unless you want the game to become a lopsided gank-fest (at least in whspace). Mr. Gera's suggestions regarding T2 resists for non-CovOps cloak recons is a better approach.

I am sometimes a carebear and sometimes not. It actually depends on which account I'm playing at the time. One of my accounts is a pure industrial guy. My others are not. As with other EVE players, that gives me perspective from all directions.

This proposed change is not good for the game. PERIOD!

Oh. Just to remind the carebear haters. They wouldn't have ships to fly, guns or turrets to fire, ammo to use, or mods to fit were it not for carebears. Too often players forget that basic fact of the EVE universe.

Considering most of the objections to the d-scan immunity are without any merit considering the existence of other cloaking PVP ships, I'd say that I've tired of responding with substance to some of the people in this thread. Asking me to respond to the merits of an argument is rather rich, considering that whats most important about this role bonus is what it portends for cloaking mechanics. Having said that, I'll review some of your notes below for any sign of 'relevance'.



I have considered that because I exploit related information already in other situations and in previous versions of the scanning rules... so long ago. But it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

The only relevant part of your note is the last paragraph, where you repeat one of Rise's points for updating recons -- making them viable for fleet action. That certainly hinges on the T2 resists. But what makes you think that these two bonuses are an either-or? Rise never said that in his note. He restated his interest in holding onto the D-scan bonus, and for the obvious reason that it represents an innovative way to address one of the long-standing issues with cloaking, namely that AFK cloakers prevent players from using their systems. This is one idea to address that, and we should find a way to bring new ideas into the game. We don't have to have an either-or situation.

The fact that you see it as an either-or debate about T2 resists versus D-scan capability assumes you know how CCP will balance this out, and I am hoping that we really can have both somehow. Try to be open minded.

O. Faeces

It took you 4.5 hours to figure this out. You are ahead of many of the other people commenting on this thread. Congratulations.


O. Faeces

I didn't make it either/or CCP Rise did. The fact is the response to the outcry about the DSCAN change was to take back the t2 resists. Rise pulled that trigger. But he was not wrong either, t2 resists and DSCAN immunity together is ridiculously powerful. Why ever use a cloaky recon? It's brother gets a free high slot and t2 resists... It just can't run camps and afk cloak

What he did about it was the wrong measure, he took away the right bonus for the wrong one.

Get it in your head that these "tears" are someone else's reasoned logic based on the current meta and where we see the health of that meta going with the proposed changes. It's called feedback.

I keep reading that the D-Scan Immunity will somehow break the game, FW and W-Space especially. I wanted to out line why this is not true.

The balancing of a ship occurs when its strengths are offset by weaknesses. These strengths and weaknesses come, for the most part, in a power triangle; a ship is balanced around damage, defense, and utility. Lets compare the Rook to the Cerberus, the Cerberus is a damage ship primarily that can fit a good tank, but it lacks utility aside from the MWD bonus. The Rook would sacrifice some of the Damage (1 Launcher, 2 Ship Bonuses, and a Low.), some tank (1 Mid, and a couple more to fit ECM), but gains equivalent utility (ECM in the Mids, and D-Scan Immunity).

Now there are two problems with the balancing of Combat Recons, the T2 Resists and the D-Scan Immunity. First I want to argue why the D-Scan Immunity is balanced by comparing it to the Stealth Bomber. The stealth bomber is balanced because it sacrifice all of its defense for damage and utility. A big portion of that utility is its cloak. Not only can the SB warp while cloaked, not have a scan res penalty, but also no cloaked targeting delay. The SB can pop out of cloak and instantly begin locking any ship. To highlight these strengths I'll lists them. The SB is immune to D-Scan, Combat Probes, Overview, and can instantly lock; for all this they get no tank and big damage. The Combat Recon gets immune to D-Scan and Instant targeting, for this they sacrifice some tank and some damage. The Combat Recon specializes in Utility, they sacrifice damage and tank, gain Utility mostly from EWAR, but also slightly from D-Scan immunity, a lesser cloak.

But if the D-Scan immunity is balanced by a reduced tank and damage, then why should it also get T2 Resists. Because it's strength is its weakness. In solo PvP you could easily run from a Recon, you don't want to fight, as soon as they land on grid because a good player prealigns. Now if they don't, then another good pilot could brawl with the Recon and probably come out on top because they have more damage and tank. Once the fight begins, the D-Scan immunity is pointless. In small gang fights, the D-Scan immunity has less of an impact, because you will probably be grouping with ships that don't have this bonus, the only advantage it gives you is that a D-Scanned fleet may appear smaller than the reality. If you are are running head long into another fleet without Combat Probing or using a cloaked scout on the enemy grid, then you deserve to lose. The further away from solo PvP the Recon gets, the less power the D-Scan Immunity gives. Now for fleet combat, the D-Scan Immunity is pointless, the problem facing fleet combat is that EWAR is usually primaried, and with T1 resists, they become way too fragile for their cost, and become outclassed by their T1 counterparts.

The T2 resists are not the huge buff to the solo pvp'er, they are a buff to the fleet pvp'er. The D-Scan Immunity is the buff to Solo PvP, one that offers more than enough counterplay. Both are needed inorder to make the Combat Recon a viable ship in both fleet and solo.