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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
AngelFood
#1901 - 2014-12-25 08:23:28 UTC
Mechanics changing like this is desperate and ill considered. Fail more.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1902 - 2014-12-25 09:22:42 UTC
Is it possible to have the best of both world with Combat Recon being front line ewar ship having HAC Resist and Force Recon being the sneaky ship with covop cloak (possibly with Dscan immunity in addition to that, though it's a bit redundant).
Yahrr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1903 - 2014-12-25 13:01:03 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


Past couple corps Ive been in, when we ran sites as a corp, our scouts got paid. Everyone who participated in the sites, cleaning up the sites and scouting all got paid. Didnt matter which task you were doing, we all split the pot.

You just have to find some good people who care more about playing EVE together and less about how much isk they can make on their own.

Hell if you are more concerned with making isk on your own and not giving a cut to Corp mates willing to watch your back, then you deserve to die by a combat recon.


Don't worry about me. I got my group of friends and we all happily follow each other into a fight we cannot win, laughing with a bottle of rum in the hand.

My problem with the 'watch all entrances all the time' suggestion is that it leads to horribly boring gameplay. IF you could even call it gameplay. Everyone that ever mined in Eve (yep, that includes me), knows that it's boring as hell. It's just no fun. Everyone that has been ECM'ed knows that if you have nothing to do, no buttons to press, Eve isn't such a fun game anymore. Should we really introduce more of that?
Orange Faeces
Farbissina Industrial and Procurement
#1904 - 2014-12-25 13:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Orange Faeces
I decided to look up your post on this, since I'm curious what you were going on about. Turns out all of your issues are redundant with T3/cloaky ships already in the game...


Please Turn wrote:
On the D-Scan immunity

As one of my corp mates said: "this seems like a weird idea; it seems CCP run out of ideas and they said - let's try a weird one this time". I couldn't agree more with what he said. I'm pretty sure the people that enjoy "ganking" as a game-play style love this change(I'm just not sure that another tool for this activity was really needed).

I just can't see the solo and the small gang PvP lovers(the ones that love the "gud fites" and not ganks) liking this change. It breaks the more powerful tool they have/had: D-Scan(I guess the only good news is the fact that you can get sisters combat probes on a confessor, lol). I'm so "excited" to see how this change will affect the Eve PvP streams, which are, for the most part, centered around PvP action at FW plexes.

As for the 'gud fites' crowd, there is no context in which the new d-scan immune combat recons will be any different than an existing cloaky recon, or cloaky T3. You still need to think before you warp somewhere in an expensive ship. So, no change there.

Please Turn wrote:

On Balancing things(in general and on recons in particular):

It's really sad to see that the balancing process is unidirectional: let's buff everything and keep doing it over and over again. I feel recons were already unique and in a good place when looked at them in zoom-in mode. The zoom-out was/is the problem, mainly the fact that T3-Cruisers are preferred over everything(especially in small/medium gang context) because for some reason CCP decided to make them good at ******* everything.

So, as long as you have little risk of dying they are the preferred ship for almost every activity. To make justice for recons a T3-Cruisers nerf(as in don't let them overlap with recons unique abilities) is/was more apropiate.

Buffing things that are underused instead of nerfing things that are overused means everyone finds their assumptions about their ships shifting over time. Cap warfare, for example, now is less relevant because of the introduction of ASB and AAR modules. You deal with it or you burn.

You felt safe in the past, warping around alone in something expensive, or worrying someone would dishonor a 1-v-1, because an assailant spent 700M isk on their ship? Well, now you have to consider assailants who spent 350M isk as well. This is not some revolutionary change that can't be overcome with a shade more discipline on your behalf.

Please Turn wrote:

On people pretending to be solo PvP'ers:

Get the hell out. When 90% of your kills are the result of gate-camping just shut up, please ...

None of my chars have participated in a gate camp since 2010, but if you are comforted by being sentimental, go for it.


O. Faeces
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#1905 - 2014-12-25 14:01:34 UTC
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


Past couple corps Ive been in, when we ran sites as a corp, our scouts got paid. Everyone who participated in the sites, cleaning up the sites and scouting all got paid. Didnt matter which task you were doing, we all split the pot.

You just have to find some good people who care more about playing EVE together and less about how much isk they can make on their own.

Hell if you are more concerned with making isk on your own and not giving a cut to Corp mates willing to watch your back, then you deserve to die by a combat recon.


Don't worry about me. I got my group of friends and we all happily follow each other into a fight we cannot win, laughing with a bottle of rum in the hand.

My problem with the 'watch all entrances all the time' suggestion is that it leads to horribly boring gameplay. IF you could even call it gameplay. Everyone that ever mined in Eve (yep, that includes me), knows that it's boring as hell. It's just no fun. Everyone that has been ECM'ed knows that if you have nothing to do, no buttons to press, Eve isn't such a fun game anymore. Should we really introduce more of that?

WHO ARE YOU KIDDING, GETTING PERMA JAMMED OR ANY OTHER ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES AT DISTANCES OF OVER 80+, 90+ EVEN 100+KM AND NOT BEING ABLE TO LOCK, SHOOT AT ANYTHING AND BEING RAPED WITH NO CHOICES OF DOING JACK SHIEUAT, IS FUN.

MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1906 - 2014-12-25 14:02:05 UTC
Orange Faeces wrote:
As for the 'gud fites' crowd, there is no context in which the new d-scan immune combat recons will be any different than an existing cloaky recon, or cloaky T3. You still need to think before you warp somewhere in an expensive ship. So, no change there.


... except the problem got bigger (more ships can do this), the ships involved in setting traps got cheaper (as you pointed out yourself), there's no risk in SP loss involved now, and there's another arbitrary exception to fundamental game rules (wasn't eve meant to become more streamlined and easier to understand?).

So yes, I'd say there is a pretty big change here. A lot of people are worried that their style of play will become harder and be less fun, and I can see why.
Joshua Milton Blahyi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1907 - 2014-12-25 15:07:41 UTC
MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:


So yes, I'd say there is a pretty big change here. A lot of people are worried that their style of play will become harder and be less fun, and I can see why.


There are two components that need to be addressed seperately so here we go.

PvE is going to get harder:

Good. PvE in this game is already an exceptional borefest. There is little to no challenge, no variety, and it very quickly becomes a rote memorization exercise. Having more capsuleer spawns in signatures is a good thing, for both the hunter and the hunted.

Anything that makes shooting red crosses less mundane is a good thing. Also, this change might help alter the current low sec dynamic of having your scanning alt finding your next site while your Ishtar pretty much afks the one you are currently in.

PvE is going to get less fun:

I didn't know it was possible to get less fun than it already is. PvE in this game is pretty bad. The only "fun" involved is in seeing how much ISK you are generating.

The carebear style of play will always survive. I don't intend to stop doing PvE, and these changes are not even going to slow me down.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1908 - 2014-12-25 16:38:17 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
I do not understand the change on the resist profile. Recons will not be fleet viable compared to t3s without a serious buff to their tank, which was one of the stated goal of the balance change to them.

So then use T3 recons for fleet work and use Combat recons for small gang.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#1909 - 2014-12-25 18:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sitting Bull Lakota
The kinetic only bonus was removed from most if not all caldari ships during the grand tiericide initiative, and it was universially welcomed.

Please don't take us back down that dark and scary road D:

Let the pilgrim have its 20% neut/nos strength bonus and add a 20% range bonus. Give the pilgrim just enough of a range boost to give it neuting power out to point range.
Otherwise, the Pilgrim is still the solo heart-breaker we love, but now faster and smaller. Still the only force recon with a full size weapon system.


Huginn looks pretty tight now that its bonus directly affects its weapon system.
Arazu could use a another highslot and turret, as could the Huginn.

What's up with the Falcon? Is ecm really so amazing that it justifies the apparent lack of damage application? How does hit or miss ewar justify 2 light drones and 2-3 turrets?
I hope the T3's get nerfed to oblivion seeing that the recons aren't getting all that much of a buff.

And finally:
Give all of these hulls Tech II resist profile.
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1910 - 2014-12-25 18:57:24 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Generaloberst Kluntz wrote:
RISE
Keep up the nice work
The trail of tears shows you're in the right direction.

So negative feedback means there doing something right? Ergo positive feedback means something is broken or OP and therefore is bad feedback.

This would mean the only valid feedback is inconclusive feedback which leads to running is circles.

To sum things up no feedback is best feedback.

See, Merry Bobmas. .
Now, when Hyperion expansion was about to be launched, I and a lot of other guys complained a lot. . In the end, the expansion was good. When Phoebe was about to be launched, it was tears all over nullsex space. In the end, it was a refreshing expansion. (Plus Bob bathed in nullbears tears lol).
Now it's Proteus and we see couple bittervets complaining. Guess what. If it were a real feedback from all players, Rise would surely take it seriously. But only a couple lazy lowseccers, naah. Do you see any snuffbox here, nope. Do you see any CSM here, nope. Do you see any wspace representative here, nope? (Appart from a few bad bears)
so yeah Rise, you're in the right direction.
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1911 - 2014-12-25 19:15:24 UTC
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Yahrr wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
...this is an MMO. There are thousands of other players in this game. Go find some friends, form up a fleet, and work together.

Are you volunteering for watching one of the entrances to your wormhole location so the rest of the fleet can do it's thing, or do you recruit noobs for that? I'm asking this as this 'defending' will be much like mining, boring as hell and not worth €15 per month. It will be different in that you can't do it while watching youtube. So in the end it is about alts.


Past couple corps Ive been in, when we ran sites as a corp, our scouts got paid. Everyone who participated in the sites, cleaning up the sites and scouting all got paid. Didnt matter which task you were doing, we all split the pot.

You just have to find some good people who care more about playing EVE together and less about how much isk they can make on their own.

Hell if you are more concerned with making isk on your own and not giving a cut to Corp mates willing to watch your back, then you deserve to die by a combat recon.


Don't worry about me. I got my group of friends and we all happily follow each other into a fight we cannot win, laughing with a bottle of rum in the hand.

My problem with the 'watch all entrances all the time' suggestion is that it leads to horribly boring gameplay. IF you could even call it gameplay. Everyone that ever mined in Eve (yep, that includes me), knows that it's boring as hell. It's just no fun. Everyone that has been ECM'ed knows that if you have nothing to do, no buttons to press, Eve isn't such a fun game anymore. Should we really introduce more of that?

You are a shame to The Tuskers tradition. And to your own name Yahrr.
Ehud Gera
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#1912 - 2014-12-25 19:15:39 UTC
The stated goal for the recon was to make it a more viable option over t3's.

Without the resists it is simply not going to fill that goal.

Why use DSCAN immunity when I can use a cloaky proteus?

Why use a fleet recon when t3's are 10x better?

The only way to achieve your goal at this point CCP is to give t3's a big enough nerf that they're not cost effective.

HOWEVER: then at that point why not use T1 cruisers instead of either?

Give t2 resists to recons! No other change needed to "fix" Recons (oh, except plz rollback the kinetic only on Rook for the love of Bob, nerf the overall DPS a tiny bit if you want [or dont] but let us choose damage types! Tactics shouldn't be limited by prejudiced hull bonuses CCP Missile Haters)

CCP you never really stated a goal for DSCAN immunity that cloaks can't fill, but you stated a legitimate goal that everyone agreed on with resists that make recons a fleet option over t3's.

You need to deliver on your real goals. Have that integrity please. 90% of posts since your update want you to go back to t2 resists and 80% of those would rather have resists than DSCAN immunity if that's the choice.

Are you going to listen? Or not?
Jitamule Momaki
Deadspace Corp.
#1913 - 2014-12-25 19:55:55 UTC
k i love the rest of the changes but the Dscan one i fear will break Wh space... your only defence in Wh is not getting caught. EX Seeing them on Dscan and GTFOing before they land on you. i fear any and all Wh hunters worth they're salt will use this to they're advantage and any Wh ratter will have to have yet another Alt for Wh picketing and with the last Wh change being more holes connect that's near impossible to watch all your exit's so one can rat "safely". tbh i don't see a point in the Dscan change if you're already buffing them, not to mention you're pretty much removing the Covop's cloak usefulness. as half of it is so you wont get caught on Dscan before you land. i fully endorse buffing the crap out of Recon's but this Dscan thing rub's me the wrong way and i assume all other Wh dweller's as i stated it basicly breaks any "saftey" artifical or otherwise from any Wh system.

Tl:DR
Dscan will break any Wh "Safety" and it will be vertiually impossible to not get ganked in Wh if someones looking for you.
and null's the point of the Covert op's cloak

i hope this part of the change gets removed prior to TQ install

Thanks for reading o7
Generaloberst Kluntz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1914 - 2014-12-25 20:19:41 UTC
Jitamule Momaki wrote:
k i love the rest of the changes but the Dscan one i fear will break Wh space... your only defence in Wh is not getting caught. EX Seeing them on Dscan and GTFOing before they land on you. i fear any and all Wh hunters worth they're salt will use this to they're advantage and any Wh ratter will have to have yet another Alt for Wh picketing and with the last Wh change being more holes connect that's near impossible to watch all your exit's so one can rat "safely". tbh i don't see a point in the Dscan change if you're already buffing them, not to mention you're pretty much removing the Covop's cloak usefulness. as half of it is so you wont get caught on Dscan before you land. i fully endorse buffing the crap out of Recon's but this Dscan thing rub's me the wrong way and i assume all other Wh dweller's as i stated it basicly breaks any "saftey" artifical or otherwise from any Wh system.

Tl:DR
Dscan will break any Wh "Safety" and it will be vertiually impossible to not get ganked in Wh if someones looking for you.
and null's the point of the Covert op's cloak

i hope this part of the change gets removed prior to TQ install

Thanks for reading o7

If you are a wspace resident you should have hole control (unless you're in a C1) .
If you live in a C2 it means two Orca passes close your connections. Frig holes can be bubbled and watched by cloaky scouts.
Higgs rig makes it easy to close bigger connections.
I pve in wspace and fail to see how dscan immunity will make it riskier, unless some no-life shoots for logofski traps in which case he would kill you anyway.
Also before Dscan immunity you can still die ( and we do) if the aggressor comes from a connection more than 14.3 AU because a cloaky prot will jump into system, cloaks and warps to you unseen and approach, bump and lock, pop. So I'd say covops cloak is still more dangerous because only dscan immunity won't keep an agressor invisible when he enters grid with you. And you'd still see and hear him jumping into system if you reasonably have a scout in that pesky connection.
Get gud.
Cledus Snowman Snow
Doomheim
#1915 - 2014-12-25 21:53:05 UTC
TuCZnak wrote:
Wow, so change that everyone was applauding (HAC resists) gets scraped, and change generating this threadnought (d-scan immunity) is staying. Apparently only because CCP Rice likes it and doesn't have problem with ignoring opinions different from his own. Nice going.

Agreed +1
ceeberus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1916 - 2014-12-26 00:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ceeberus
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:
TuCZnak wrote:
Wow, so change that everyone was applauding (HAC resists) gets scraped, and change generating this threadnought (d-scan immunity) is staying. Apparently only because CCP Rice likes it and doesn't have problem with ignoring opinions different from his own. Nice going.

Agreed +1



im disapointed about this d-scan invul. it so OP
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1917 - 2014-12-26 00:58:38 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:

WHO ARE YOU KIDDING, GETTING PERMA JAMMED OR ANY OTHER ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES AT DISTANCES OF OVER 80+, 90+ EVEN 100+KM AND NOT BEING ABLE TO LOCK, SHOOT AT ANYTHING AND BEING RAPED WITH NO CHOICES OF DOING JACK SHIEUAT, IS FUN.



The people who get ganked dont like it much either.

But if someone is going to have fun, someone has to pay...

:p
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1918 - 2014-12-26 01:49:48 UTC
Give dscan immunity to force recons. Give Combat recons full resist set.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1919 - 2014-12-26 01:59:47 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Give dscan immunity to force recons. Give Combat recons full resist set.


I might actually give the huginn a second look if that were the case. As it sits now, its just in an awkward position (as usual for minmatar). Not enough PG to fit long range weapons to suit its web and TP bonus (since a/c dont really need better tracking provided by TP). Now without the resists its not suitable to brawl with a/c's. So its high are probably going to filled with neuts to peel tackle off, as it has been already. Since the anemic dps with relatively poor range of 650's isn't worth gimping the fit over.
Segraina Skyblazer
Doomheim
#1920 - 2014-12-26 02:07:24 UTC
Nice changes. +1 from me. Just to clarify since I haven't use recons before, does that mean that the covert ops recons already have D-scan immunity when cloaked and uncloaked?