These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
SpaceSaft
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#121 - 2014-12-18 15:58:49 UTC
I have no idea about what state these ships are in or what a good balance would look like so, disclaimer.

The d scan thing looks like fun though.

All against are like "but but... I have to be ready to pvp?". All for are looking forward to the new pvp possibiliities.

I suspect it's going to be OP but a new scan system is necessary sometime in the future anyway.

Wasn't there talk about CCP being reluctant to upgrade the d-scan UI because bigger changes were planned?
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#122 - 2014-12-18 15:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
Love the changes, might actually hop a Recon finally.

But I have to agree with some of the others here: dscan immunity, while hilarious, is bound to be borked. Now not only must a pilot presume that every square meter of space around him is filled with cloaky campers, he must also assume that every cubic meter beyond his grid is filled with combat recons he can't see, nor will he see, until they jump him or he happens to land on top of them.

Most other ships in game that ignore an effect or set of effects pay for it. Bastion module immune to ewar, you have to sit still. Triage makes you rep harder, can't receive reps. Interceptors, while way OP with bubble immunity, can't do much but tackle if they find you. They're not the thing that kills you, it's the people that follow them. Now a combat recon, with no trade-off I can see, gets dscan immunity. If you want to do this, make it a module. Make a literal d-scan cloak. It doesn't block light, just sensor sweeps. This way they can get into system, d-scan cloak, and have to trade something: locked in place is a pretty common solution.
Zomgnomnom
Contra Ratio
GameTheory
#123 - 2014-12-18 16:00:45 UTC
Can you take another look at the Pilgrim perhaps, I don't see the range being that effective to be honest. There is now pretty much no reason to ever use a pilgrim over a curse other than a blops bridge.

Perhaps a bonus that more suits the Pilgrims role as a tackle and cyno?

Also, the Falcon and ECM in general have needed an overhaul since forever. VERY under whelmed on the Falcon pass.
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2014-12-18 16:01:12 UTC
Vadeim Rizen wrote:
this is so hilariously OP. inb4 recon nerf.

ratters now can't even just keep an eye on d-scan and warp out before someone comes in to tackle.... nobody will be able to detect a covert ops cyno at all unless randomly using combat probes... tbh all they needed was a hitpoint and cap buff.

can't wait to sit in a medium plex with an insta-lock arty rapier and blap unsuspecting frigs.



reading is hard huh
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#125 - 2014-12-18 16:01:53 UTC
Cap was one of the few things holding these ships back.

If its one thing I have noticed- its this:

All ships that have gone through a balance pass no longer have any cap stability issues, or cap has been grossly increased. These ships are extremely strong force multipliers, and one of the few things keeping them in check was their very weak cap when running EWAR. The EAF's are already terrors, why do recons need cap buffs as well?
Minaro Shina
off course
#126 - 2014-12-18 16:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Minaro Shina
Janeway84 wrote:
Some good changes and 1 bad imo Big smile
Awesome that you looking on recons but removing ship from dscan is way to OP.
Also hugin and rapier should swap weapon bonuses Smile

And arazu should get drone damage bonus please Smile



Just look at the phobos and devoted.

Gallente now gets optimal/tracking bonis (previously caldari) and Amarr gets the drones.


I really don't know why ... but apparently a appropriate bonis would be to OP and fu*king over the lore because of "balance" is Fozzies thing.
Gorgof Intake
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-12-18 16:02:15 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Diivil wrote:
Combat recons should at least show up in dscan if you are on the same grid with them. Majority of Eve use dscan tools and it would be extremely frustrating to not be able to copy a certain ship type from dscan list when you can clearly see it in your own overview.

Good point.


Terrible Point.

I for one applaud the fact that Intel tools are taking a subsequent nerf. One of the biggest factors that has degraded the content in Null Sec warfare in particular has been the advent and growth of these sorts of instant, perfect intelligence tools.

Dont get me wrong, i'll use them in every fleet I run while I can but taking off my FC hat and putting on a game design/balance one, the fact that intelligence gathering has largely been relegated to clicking d-scan from cloaky eyes just off a hostile POS grid and all of a sudden an FC has perfect assessment of enemy fleet composition is a really bad game mechanic.

Anything that adds uncertainty or requires player skill instead of a 'click here to win' approach to fleet combat is a good step in the right direction.

As a CSM I would have expected you to have considered that.
Gremk
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#128 - 2014-12-18 16:03:03 UTC
At first I loved the idea of not having combat recons now show up on d-scan...

But then I thought about it a little more and it doesn't really seem like a good idea for a few reasons:

1. Basically invisible with no decloak delay
2. If you're running missions / ded sites then you have to have a dedicated char on the first gate (and can never see when they are warping in until they are there)
3. DScan tools for large fleets won't work properly to give intel in a fast manner
4. OP roaming ship, unable to keep up with them unless you physically see where they are going gate to gate...

Basically at the end of the day it is like having a perma cloak without any of the negatives of the cloak. For WH'ers it sounds like a nightmare.

My suggestions is to make it to where they can only be seen within a certain AU of you ie 3-5AU or remove it completely.

OR you could just remove the cloaking delay and give them one that matches the stealth bomber. That way for DED/mission runners/WH you have to originally cloak / uncloak at activation gates.
Sokor Loro
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2014-12-18 16:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sokor Loro
I don't understand all the complaints like, "Now I have to have scouts on every hole!". Are covert recons/T3s/bombers not a thing that you already see right now and have to deal with? It's literally the exact same situation. Except with these you can still probe them out.

I don't see how this "breaks" WH space as is because there are already loads of cases where you cannot rely on Dscan to get your information.

Even with the upgraded combat capabilities, these are not going to be unstoppable killing machines. They will still require gang/fleet assistance to bring down targets. So now instead of literally everyone cloaking up a rapier/arazu in a site/whole/complex they might actually use a Huginn/Lachesis to do it.

edit: Also, **** your Dscan tool. It's become a crutch that people rely on and devalues good scouting/intel. How about you use your eyes or ears and just tell your FC how many Huginns you see on your overview.
Lorac Gemini
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-12-18 16:04:15 UTC
Levina Windstar wrote:
Lorac Gemini wrote:
Levina Windstar wrote:
I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

CCP plz... think about WH too! :/



As a wormholer, I think this is amazing. But I guess WH carebears would hate this.


I think it's an amazing idea too, but you have to understand that most corp in WH are small corp and it's another kick in the ass for them (for us). We are not carebear at all but if this **** happens, we will seriously think of leaving WH for good.

I mean cmon... can't you see this is way too OP in WH space? I get it in K-Space but balance must be made in W-Space



You realise cloaks are a thing right? Recons off Dscan is too scary, but cloaky T3's, bombers, force recons, etc...

If anything, this just makes W-space more varied.

See, I'm honestly surprised to see WH tears here, because we should be used to non-information.
Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#131 - 2014-12-18 16:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
This is certainly going to spice things up in wormholes a little bit Big smile

Although leaving combat probes out will be a counter to this right off the bat.

In my opinion, it's probably still going to be easier to use cloakies so you can get on grid with them and remain cloaked while slow boating to them.

I do like this change though. Adds a little bit more danger to everything.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
raging star
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2014-12-18 16:06:12 UTC
ale rico wrote:
  • Give Combat Recons something to make them stand out as a unique and interesting set of ships


  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners


    • Seems to me a stronger tank or significant damage bonuses would have had the desired effect without completely changing the game with recons. I hope you guys thought about all implications this will bring.


    Wormholes have become more scarier than ever. Sure you can use combat probes to find out of you sre alone or not but dscan is you primary eyes in a wormhole and if the attack recons can't be seen by it, it gives the attackers one hell of an advantage even ahead of cloakers.
    Lorac Gemini
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #133 - 2014-12-18 16:06:52 UTC
    Surprised there's more WH tears than FW tears here. Figured FW farmers not being able to see a recon on dscan would make them like this change less.
    Glyndi
    Doom Generation
    Best Intentions.
    #134 - 2014-12-18 16:06:53 UTC
    As a WHer I love these changes. Makes WHS even harder...as they should be.

    Would be nice though to have that 4th low on the Lachesis.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #135 - 2014-12-18 16:08:28 UTC
    The number of people in this thread that think that the Falcon, Rapier, Arazu, and Pilgrim are becoming immune to directional scan is depressingly high.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    RTSAvalanche
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #136 - 2014-12-18 16:08:37 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Okay some bad typos there sorry. Slot layout on Curse and Huginn were both messed up, fixed that. Added sig radius to Huginn. Fixed typo in Curse damage bonus.



    You forgot about the "Can not be seen on DSCAN" typo..


    #evebroken
    Gabriel Karade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #137 - 2014-12-18 16:08:47 UTC
    Please consider making the Lachesis a 5 mid/5 low slot platform. It really makes no sense giving it the Gallente HAC resistance profile (which favours armour), with more armour than shield, then knee-capping it with 3 low slots.

    5/5 makes so much more sense - its Gallente, armour tank first, but still flexible enough to be fit otherwise.

    War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
    Tear Jar
    New Order Logistics
    CODE.
    #138 - 2014-12-18 16:08:50 UTC
    Stacy Lone wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

    Have you considered the implications this will have for wspace?

    I mean it might work for 0.0 where you can see that *something* is there through local, but in wspace, this will be absolutely OP and hilarious. No local, not even DScan anymore, how are you supposed to even get any intel?

    The only way to detect such a ship is by having either eyes on all wholes (requires multitude of characters) and thus seeing it enter or by constant combat probing, which can be seen by the enemy.

    I fear that this will make this ship far out of line in wspace, where intel is already harder to get than in 0.0.


    How is that any different than cov ops ships?
    Adarnof
    Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
    Birds of Prey.
    #139 - 2014-12-18 16:10:08 UTC
    Wormholer here. So how exactly did you envision this dscan invisibility playing out? Is CCP even aware of how critical this function is to our day-to-day lives? If you want a ship to be hidden, fine, cloak it. The penalty being it can't engage in combat while cloaked. This new ability is stupidly overpowered and is yet another swing of the nerfbat to small group viability.

    If we can't dscan the ship, the pilot should also be removed from local channel in kspace to make things "balanced".
    Kynric
    Sky Fighters
    Rote Kapelle
    #140 - 2014-12-18 16:10:54 UTC
    Lorac Gemini wrote:
    Levina Windstar wrote:
    I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

    CCP plz... think about WH too! :/



    As a wormholer, I think this is amazing. But I guess WH carebears would hate this.


    It goes both ways. Expect to see ratting or hacking rooks, gassing huggins and other silliness. I would prefer a chance to not show on dscan or a shortening of the range at which they will appear rather than an absolute as that makes for a more interesting cat and mouse. Either way new shennanigans should make for good times.