These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
bp920091
Black Aces
Goonswarm Federation
#4441 - 2014-10-02 23:04:13 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Well, we've got to expect that these changes are going to happen. CCP is blindly rushing into the future with a goal in mind, and doesnt care about the collateral damage that it'll cause in the process (collateral damage = anyone in 0.0 that's not in a major coalition, and anyone involved with the T2 market (including consumers)), Never mind that the real issue wont be dealt with (major coalitions and supercaps) without obliterating every other group that could be affected by their changes first.

These changes go through, my JF and 2 cyno accounts are going unsubbed, as there's no point for them anymore. They'll resub once CCP stares at the shambles of the T2 market, upon realization that the workaround pre-JF was to use carriers with industrials, and that most of the supply of R8/32 minerals will vanish (not all, most).

-$45/month for you CCP, great job.

How'd that anomaly nerf go for for greyscale? work out as intended? how about the refusal to listen to community feedback, saying that "we know what we're doing, it'll be fine," turning 95% of 0.0 into a wasteland.


you now it would not be so bad if at the same time CCP added missions to outposts... that would help with the density problem faced with the current pve meta of 0.0


The problem isnt missions, the problem is that R8/32 moons are needed for reactions, and they are NOT universal, and very very regional (specifically R8, but R32 moons arent much better), and the POSs needed to react the materials are NOT plug and play. Caldari and Gallente POSs are about the only ones that can react to any reasonable degree. Minmatar and Amarr POSs do not have the CPU needed.

CCP, if you want to do this, you NEED to make ice and all moon minerals universal. To do otherwise will annihilate the T2 market.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#4442 - 2014-10-02 23:05:37 UTC
bp920091 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Well, we've got to expect that these changes are going to happen. CCP is blindly rushing into the future with a goal in mind, and doesnt care about the collateral damage that it'll cause in the process (collateral damage = anyone in 0.0 that's not in a major coalition, and anyone involved with the T2 market (including consumers)), Never mind that the real issue wont be dealt with (major coalitions and supercaps) without obliterating every other group that could be affected by their changes first.

These changes go through, my JF and 2 cyno accounts are going unsubbed, as there's no point for them anymore. They'll resub once CCP stares at the shambles of the T2 market, upon realization that the workaround pre-JF was to use carriers with industrials, and that most of the supply of R8/32 minerals will vanish (not all, most).

-$45/month for you CCP, great job.

How'd that anomaly nerf go for for greyscale? work out as intended? how about the refusal to listen to community feedback, saying that "we know what we're doing, it'll be fine," turning 95% of 0.0 into a wasteland.


you now it would not be so bad if at the same time CCP added missions to outposts... that would help with the density problem faced with the current pve meta of 0.0


The problem isnt missions, the problem is that R8/32 moons are needed for reactions, and they are NOT universal, and very very regional (specifically R8, but R32 moons arent much better), and the POSs needed to react the materials are NOT plug and play. Caldari and Gallente POSs are about the only ones that can react to any reasonable degree. Minmatar and Amarr POSs do not have the CPU needed.

CCP, if you want to do this, you NEED to make ice and all moon minerals universal. To do otherwise will annihilate the T2 market.



No, it won't. What it'll do is create haves and not haves, which creates feuds. Which is good.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#4443 - 2014-10-02 23:06:27 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Asteroid VeIdspar wrote:
I may be late with my input. I really hope all these lvl 4 mission runners, who praise this change, hop in their golems and invade nullsec for so much needed content after "the power projection nerf". Also on the side note I remember there was the CFC backed event of bringing highsec players into nullsec. Huge fleets were assembled, so much tidi and then... there was Vee with his gate camp and hundreds of wrecks around him. He said something like that "I'm amazed how these developers have so little idea about how their own game operates".


Ironic is that the o.o empires are built off the back of former lev IV mission runners doing annoms in thier carriers...

So i really do hope that come patch day the proletariat rise up against thier bourgeoisie masters.


I don't think you understand the definition of irony.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4444 - 2014-10-02 23:07:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Just because you don't understand why the design created the Eve of today, doesn't mean that it's not the root cause. Everything that exists today in nullsec is the inevitable result of how nullsec works and how people work.

And now you're pouring cement into the mix.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

If we can predict the consequences of changes we make, players will be able to (some of you are always smarter than us), and changes that can be predicted are changes that can be solved, and solved problems are boring. If we can know what the exact consequences will be for changes we're making, we've already failed.


Don't forget that the opposite of this isn't true. Just because you don't understand the consequences doesn't mean the players don't. We do logistics, we live in nullsec, we play the game. You don't understand the resounding effects of each arbitrary change you make to patch a hole in an already bad design, we do.

So maybe you should be looking less at whether YOU can predict the changes, and more at whether the combined pools of leadership in nullsec can. And guess what? We can.

To reiterate again. These changes are good for the security of the existing coalitions. They are bad for people trying to live in nullsec who have interest in leaving their home constellation. The only serious damage these changes are likely to inflict on the nullsec powers is a loss of manpower as people unsubscribe.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#4445 - 2014-10-02 23:08:45 UTC
This might help some of you . Have a read http://crossingzebras.com/manny-the-i-was-right-story/

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Immortal Chrono Pimpin
Codename-47
Avocado Cartel
#4446 - 2014-10-02 23:09:18 UTC
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).


#Save_Blops_BS
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4447 - 2014-10-02 23:10:53 UTC
Can we get a ruling on reconsideration of JF nerf? I need to know if CCP plans to unfrack this mess before my 8 subs renew at the end of the month.
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#4448 - 2014-10-02 23:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
Roaming fleets create content, not the guys sitting lazy on poses and hotdrop everything with superior numbers on the other side of the galaxy. Long overdue changes.

So far a good change for me. Will shake-up some of the power blocs and tactics, but thats a good thing.

Not sure about how these changes work for JF and logistics generaly. Perhaps they need a buff to compensate.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4449 - 2014-10-02 23:12:50 UTC
bp920091 wrote:
The problem isnt missions, the problem is that R8/32 moons are needed for reactions, and they are NOT universal, and very very regional (specifically R8, but R32 moons arent much better), and the POSs needed to react the materials are NOT plug and play. Caldari and Gallente POSs are about the only ones that can react to any reasonable degree. Minmatar and Amarr POSs do not have the CPU needed.

CCP, if you want to do this, you NEED to make ice and all moon minerals universal. To do otherwise will annihilate the T2 market.

Hi. Just thought I'd point out that there are moons in 0.1-0.4 space, that you can buy moongoo off the market, and that reaction towers can be anchored anywhere - including highsec.

In short, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from sourcing the stuff you need to build and maintain the stuff you want. And sourcing raw materials to build your stuff will take far less jump-capable logistics capacity than moving finished goods around.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4450 - 2014-10-02 23:13:26 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Well, we've got to expect that these changes are going to happen. CCP is blindly rushing into the future with a goal in mind, and doesnt care about the collateral damage that it'll cause in the process (collateral damage = anyone in 0.0 that's not in a major coalition, and anyone involved with the T2 market (including consumers)), Never mind that the real issue wont be dealt with (major coalitions and supercaps) without obliterating every other group that could be affected by their changes first.

These changes go through, my JF and 2 cyno accounts are going unsubbed, as there's no point for them anymore. They'll resub once CCP stares at the shambles of the T2 market, upon realization that the workaround pre-JF was to use carriers with industrials, and that most of the supply of R8/32 minerals will vanish (not all, most).

-$45/month for you CCP, great job.

How'd that anomaly nerf go for for greyscale? work out as intended? how about the refusal to listen to community feedback, saying that "we know what we're doing, it'll be fine," turning 95% of 0.0 into a wasteland.


you now it would not be so bad if at the same time CCP added missions to outposts... that would help with the density problem faced with the current pve meta of 0.0


The problem isnt missions, the problem is that R8/32 moons are needed for reactions, and they are NOT universal, and very very regional (specifically R8, but R32 moons arent much better), and the POSs needed to react the materials are NOT plug and play. Caldari and Gallente POSs are about the only ones that can react to any reasonable degree. Minmatar and Amarr POSs do not have the CPU needed.

CCP, if you want to do this, you NEED to make ice and all moon minerals universal. To do otherwise will annihilate the T2 market.



No, it won't. What it'll do is create haves and not haves, which creates feuds. Which is good.


cant you use WH and stuff like that as a way to import those materials... or get a corp that will import them for you for a fee?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4451 - 2014-10-02 23:14:19 UTC
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Given that the players decide what goals to pursue and how, yes. I think it's entirely appropriate to do so.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4452 - 2014-10-02 23:15:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to getting this significant set of improvements for Nullsec released!

Big thanks to the whole CSM for their help with this process so far and the good work I know they'll continue to do as we consult with them going forward.

I want to remind people that this is just one step. We're not expecting it to fix everything overnight but it will be a very valuable step forward that we will keep building upon.


CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops we will look at again, definitely. Can't say what we'll decide, but it's clear from the discussion thus far that they need another pass.


To quote a previous dev from a news story i’ve just been reading I don’t hold my breath for future iterations of this “feature” this is also based on previous years of experience with eve and the devs of old and new.

previous dev wrote:
Without the time or resources to properly do so, many things were left half-delivered, to be iterated upon later – which never happened. CCP has an extensive track record of promising to return to features and never doing so


News article

My confidence is at an all time low in the belief that this "feature" will be visited upon any time within the next 5 years and they where working on 6 month schedules.

I see a future of battle rorqs and mass black ops fleets it looks funny but an industrial and a T2 BS projecting force rarther than capitals no that just sounds wrong to me.


If your really set on hitting jump drives hit them ALL before we end up with more "unintended gameplay".

Waits for the tears of the HTFU crowdCoolCoolCool
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#4453 - 2014-10-02 23:15:16 UTC
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Just because you don't understand why the design created the Eve of today, doesn't mean that it's not the root cause. Everything that exists today in nullsec is the inevitable result of how nullsec works and how people work.

And now you're pouring cement into the mix.
Well, no. See, the game is designed as we know it right now. You guys can blob at your hearts content as of today.

With the changes, and more to the point, the question being asked, Grayscale's reply is correct.
Why should CCP tell you how to adapt to the changes and play the game? Get your alliance leaders to figure that bit out for you. Shed weight if you need to, and move on. Adapt and survive, or die out is what he is saying.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4454 - 2014-10-02 23:15:45 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
reaction towers can be anchored anywhere - including highsec.

Um, no. Both miners and reactors are restricted to 0.4 or below.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4455 - 2014-10-02 23:16:11 UTC
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Just because you don't understand why the design created the Eve of today, doesn't mean that it's not the root cause. Everything that exists today in nullsec is the inevitable result of how nullsec works and how people work.

And now you're pouring cement into the mix.


No, he's blaming you for voluntarily playing an aspect of it while simulataneously suggesting its not worth it and theres better to be had elsewhere.

He's calling you out on such a b.s. statement. Just far more eloquently and with fewer words.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4456 - 2014-10-02 23:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Erufen Rito wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.

Well, no. See, the game is designed as we know it right now. You guys can blob at your hearts content as of today.

With the changes, and more to the point, the question being asked, Grayscale's reply is correct.
Why should CCP tell you how to adapt to the changes and play the game? Get your alliance leaders to figure that bit out for you. Shed weight if you need to, and move on. Adapt and survive, or die out is what he is saying.


We can blob just fine after the changes, just the mechanics for doing so change slightly. In fact, the added difficulty in doing so is easily offset by guess what? Adding more people.

Nobody is asking him to figure it out for us, we know how, we can and will adapt to them. The problem is that Greyscale literally does not understand his own changes.

Nobody is complaining about the long distance force projection. The problem lies in all of the other backdoored changes that ruin life in nullsec even for those who never leave their home constellation.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4457 - 2014-10-02 23:18:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
reaction towers can be anchored anywhere - including highsec.

Um, no. Both miners and reactors are restricted to 0.4 or below.

Ah - didn't realize that about reactors. Been a while since I've run a POS.

Oh well - guess there's absolutely nowhere outside of Sov Null to source moongoo or do reactions.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#4458 - 2014-10-02 23:20:11 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
McBorsk wrote:
218 pages? Calm down, people.



I am calm and im trying my best to prvide reasonable comprimises


How many times can I say it. CCP will not compromise. Coming up with new ideas at this point isn't doing anything. They don't care. It doesn't matter how articulate your argument is, this is exactly what they want to do. Everyone crying over how hard their life will be doesn't make them want to change their mind, it makes them assured that these changes are exactly what they want.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#4459 - 2014-10-02 23:20:13 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.



With the changes, and more to the point, the question being asked, Grayscale's reply is correct.
Why should CCP tell you how to adapt to the changes and play the game? Get your alliance leaders to figure that bit out for you. Shed weight if you need to, and move on. Adapt and survive, or die out is what he is saying.


Nobody is asking him to figure it out for us, we know how, we can and will adapt to them. The problem is that Greyscale literally does not understand his own changes.

I will let you figure out the inconsistency with your statement.

The original question posed content creation from CCP after the changes. Grayscale's answer stands.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4460 - 2014-10-02 23:20:59 UTC
Kirasten wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Asteroid VeIdspar wrote:
I may be late with my input. I really hope all these lvl 4 mission runners, who praise this change, hop in their golems and invade nullsec for so much needed content after "the power projection nerf". Also on the side note I remember there was the CFC backed event of bringing highsec players into nullsec. Huge fleets were assembled, so much tidi and then... there was Vee with his gate camp and hundreds of wrecks around him. He said something like that "I'm amazed how these developers have so little idea about how their own game operates".


Ironic is that the o.o empires are built off the back of former lev IV mission runners doing annoms in thier carriers...

So i really do hope that come patch day the proletariat rise up against thier bourgeoisie masters.


I don't think you understand the definition of irony.


inconceivable

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.