These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3521 - 2014-10-02 16:27:00 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Raelaem Eudain wrote:
Just think, for a second... stay with me here

1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.

Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...

Just saying


Cuz it's not a job?


Cuz real life sucks thats why we're playing video games instead?

If I wanted to play real life I would play real life.
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#3522 - 2014-10-02 16:27:50 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Raelaem Eudain wrote:
Just think, for a second... stay with me here

1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.

Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...

Just saying


Cuz it's not a job?


Cuz real life sucks thats why we're playing video games instead?

If I wanted to play real life I would play real life.

Story of my life
Barracuda Drexciya
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#3523 - 2014-10-02 16:27:51 UTC
If force projection is one of the main reasons for these changes, why are jump freighters, blops and rorquals nerfed?
Those are not the ships that are flown in huge gangs.




Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3524 - 2014-10-02 16:27:59 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Riddari Prowler wrote:
Does CCP think most of the people saying they like this change in this thread are serious? Or do they understand that majority of them are just trolling?

well no, they're not trolling, they do like the change

they just like it for the sole reason they think it hurts us and they want that not that they understand anything about it


No, we like them because they're good mechanics.

Your delusions of persecution and grandeur are the product of your egos, not everyone else's 'grrr goons'.

The best (and only, imo) joy at your expense to be had here is the schadenfreude watching your alliance's shock and disappointment in thinking it's CMS reps had locked in the changes YOU wanted, (which would have been utterly terrible for the game without THIS change.)

Oh how could they do this without your approval? And without telling you about it before hand? It's a regular Greek tragedy I tell ya. Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Murauke
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#3525 - 2014-10-02 16:28:16 UTC
Changing the Cyno mechanic changes force projection. punishing people for jumping ships isn't the way forward.
Ashlore
The Cult of Domingo
#3526 - 2014-10-02 16:28:50 UTC
Will be fun to change corp.
Moving from 1 side of eve to another.
When will you be here? Oh within the next month or so. all depending on fatigue....

If caps not are going trou JB why add fatigue to that as well?
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#3527 - 2014-10-02 16:29:14 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
There is actually another "solution" that might fix the issue with "cyno alt" issue.

maybe... just maybe... allow people to jump into a system without a cyno. Give people the option of whether to jump using the cyno as a specific targeting beacon, or by targeting the destination system itself and jumping into it without a cyno (lets say the target in this case would be the big celestial (you can target a planet or the sun as a cyno point), and you can jump into the system at or around 50 to 100km from that celestial).

it is not a direct on-top hop like a cyno beacon, but you would be able to travel without having the cyno alt in system (a scout is very advisable). You'd remove almost 90% of logistic issues as there would be no definitive need for cynos, fuel, alts and ships. A scout would be all you would need if you are doing it alone and are "brave".

You give people the option. Jump blindly into a system without a specific targeting point (a cyno), or use a traditional cyno as a targeting point.

Its give and take, and I prefer this more to having to create a network of 100 cyno alts, all with generators, noob ships and fuel. Id rather take a stealth bomber or a expedition ship, scout the system then decide whether its safe to jump without a generator, or to get a generator and jump in. I would add something to the notification bar for everybody in the system "a shockwave has ripped through the system at planet/sun". People already have the notification of when a cyno goes up (you can see the thing). This would pretty much be no difference.

You turn Jumping into a logistics move, or a tactical move.

But you give people the option. That is more a viable idea.

Summary: You can jump drive blindly into a system without a scout now, but your destination is not exact. Cyno bulbs still work as normal for a precise (on point) jump.

Just an idea since people are flooding the forums with them.



Not happening as they'll lose 1/2 subs :)
Roman Lynch
Okkamon Pride
#3528 - 2014-10-02 16:29:15 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Raelaem Eudain wrote:
Just think, for a second... stay with me here

1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.

Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...

Just saying


Cuz it's not a job?


Cuz real life sucks thats why we're playing video games instead?

If I wanted to play real life I would play real life.



IRL has great graphics... but the story line sucks.

Also: Spoiler... you die at the end
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#3529 - 2014-10-02 16:29:31 UTC
CCP - don't forget to update the character bizarre rules to include disclosing fatigue level
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3530 - 2014-10-02 16:29:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:

Now throw some Hyperspatial Accelerators in the lows and bring a couple carriers with you to refit to tank on the fly. Really, this isn't going to work out how CCP thinks it is.


It only needs the one rig and the implants. Using the MWD effectively it can theoretically take part in cruiser fleetsTwisted

Yeah, I was EFTing a nanohel last night. With hg ascendancies and three prototype hyperspatial accelerators you can get 3.6 AU/s. :getin:

(with 3 T2 Hyperspatial rigs you can get 6.2 AU/s but i'd rather use the rigs for other stuff)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#3531 - 2014-10-02 16:30:00 UTC
Roman Lynch wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Raelaem Eudain wrote:
Just think, for a second... stay with me here

1 world/planet with military forces requires the world powers to project their assets all around the globe. Requires them to carefully plan and place assets where they think they need them. Bases of operations/forward operating posts foreign posts with allies.

Oh jeez thats us IRL OH HEY! So why shouldn't a virtual reality require the same amount of care and planning for its military...

Just saying


Cuz it's not a job?


Cuz real life sucks thats why we're playing video games instead?

If I wanted to play real life I would play real life.



IRL has great graphics... but the story line sucks.

Also: Spoiler... you die at the end


Thanks for the reminder, jeez.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#3532 - 2014-10-02 16:30:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I shall call it monkfish.


:))

Invalid signature format
white male privilege
Doomheim
#3533 - 2014-10-02 16:31:15 UTC
luredivino wrote:
So basically what you are saying is that if you have an emergency, you now are guarenteed to lose a multibillion isk ship. My fire alarm is going off, but I have to sit at my computer for 3 hours and wait this absurd timer off or lose something that took me 40 hours to get the isk for. Cant log off because combat timer. Well, might as well let my building burn down.


Things you are making virtually impossible:

  • Lowsec and nulsec incursions
  • Moving rigged ships anywhere
  • Anyone except the largest groups moving anywhere by themselves
  • Blops fleets
  • Accessing npc null
  • Being able to leave system because of something in real life (People with jobs and school play this game)
  • Taking a region from a large group
  • Living in null without some kind of industrial group building stuff for you locally (Gl living in aridia or any other remote region without people selling stuff.


Things you are doing


  • Pissing half the game off
  • Maybe limiting power projection



Seems worth


Its not a ******* logoff timer you ******* nerd
Rarnak Ki
Twilight Hour Industries
Barely-Legal
#3534 - 2014-10-02 16:31:18 UTC
Like many others on here, I spent the evening thinking about these changes and I am still convinced that the double nerf of jump fatigue and reduced jump range should not be applied to jump freighters.


  • Any significant activities in this game take multiple jf loads of materials. Fuel for one L POS for a month takes 40% a Rhea's cargohold. So each month, just to fuel a pos ring of say, 20 towers, takes 8 full loads in a Rhea. Even if it was to a system within 5ly of Jita, that is still 16 jumps (round trip). This is not to mention the number of jumps required for all the pos ring materials. For capital ship producers, it takes even more trips to haul all of that tritanium. Even with the 90% reduction, the time it takes is going to add up exponentially. These activities have nothing to do with force projection (you are only traveling 5ly from Jita) and yet they are still heavily nerfed.

  • The problem quickly gets out of hand when trying to travel to places more distant than 5ly from Jita. As it stands right now, because of the prevalence of suicide ganking freighters and the fact that there is no way to defend against it, to haul the really expensive stuff, jumping out of Jita in a jf is the only alternative. Yet the dev seems to think that gate jumping is the alternative to balance out these changes. For cargos worth over 1bil, gate jumping, even in high sec, is too dangerous. Gate jumping into low/null with a jf? Just as now, it will never happen. Even if one was to take gates, the slow warp speed of jump freighters will also add significant amount of time. So cyno jumping gets exponentially harder and more time consuming (both in jump fatigue and number of cynos/jumps) without any sort of real alternative available to balance it out. The net result is that moving stuff more than 5ly from jita is going to take so long as to be prohibitive to all but the most hardcore players.

  • Perhaps when Phase 2 and Phase 3 are fully deployed, there will be balance. Until then jump freighters should be left as they are (at a minimum). Otherwise any significant industrial activities will be unplayable. Not a great way to follow the entire restructuring of the industry system.

Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3535 - 2014-10-02 16:32:17 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Not entirely sure if this will work but my dream of roaming dreads just took a big step forwards. Anyway, 1.7 mil EHP, 3au warp speed, a metric fuckton of firepower, half a minute to align (two nano take that down to 22 sec). Frankly if I can get this things align time down to around a battleships I may use it in baltec fleet in an ultimate show of stubbornness. I shall call it monkfish.

CCP Grayscale what have you done?

Now throw some Hyperspatial Accelerators in the lows and bring a couple carriers with you to refit to tank on the fly. Really, this isn't going to work out how CCP thinks it is.


How do you think they think it's going to work out?

Do you think CCP wants to pick winners and losers?

I think whatever happens, they'll be very pleased vs now. Change is good, stagnation is not.

The ultimate outcome for one alliance or another is irrelevant. All that matters is content and opportunity. This change moves the game in that direction.

The PR and resubs alone will make this a success; which is important to the business side of the house. But the main goal I imagine is just to shake things up and get some warm blood pumping through some very cold stargates. This will definitely accomplish that.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3536 - 2014-10-02 16:32:21 UTC
You obviously think transport ships should be treated differently, since you're talking of a whopping -90% to fatigue mechanics.

So why are you nerfing JF jump range, too?

In a nutshell, JFs currently allow players to blow up themselves (and/or PVE) more and more often. Even transporting minerals/materials ultimately results in making ships available quickly and abundantly to players (PVPers and PVEers too, even if the latter tend to explode a bit less often).

Furthermore, JF capability currently down-scales quite easily: even a small group can easily have a similar - or even higher - 'ship replacement capability per player' than a large bloc.


So, again, what's the reason for JF jump range nerf?


If you change your mind on this, you could also consider introducing a new class of JFs with a ship maintenance bay. We all know carriers are used both for transport and combat. So why not break up these two roles into two different ship classes? A combat/triage carrier with a very small ship bay and a new JF with a big bay and zero combat capability.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#3537 - 2014-10-02 16:32:35 UTC
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
Zepheros Naeonis wrote:
If jump fatigue, cool down timers and travel time for using jump drvies are going to exist, then anyone jumping through a Stargate or an ACTUAL wormhole should technically be hit with the same restraints as well since all forms of travel use wormholes. Not that a sci-fi game needs to make any sense, but lets at least be consistant here if we are going to make stupid and ridiculous changes without actually putting any thought behind it.


One has a big gate to stablize the hole.. the other is a ship shoving lots of power and rips open a hole.

What does the stability of a wormhole have to do with the time it takes to travel through it? Nothing.
Isha Subula
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3538 - 2014-10-02 16:33:33 UTC
Sally Hermoine wrote:
CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.

And then we are expected to earn isk? Not possible anymore no where to sell goods noway to move it , minerals are dying in price and will only get worse, for high sec also as noone will buy caps off the market now. They will be just be made locally (which i dont mind too) but the market is gonna go way down, also losing lots of subscribers will just make matters worse. So yeah im not happy :(



and having industrialists in null is a bad thing? Being able to move large quantities of ships, mods whatever from high to null is a part of the problem. Now null pvp'ers will have to stop treating miners like crap and actually accept that they need them to survive.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3539 - 2014-10-02 16:34:25 UTC
Ashlore wrote:
Will be fun to change corp.
If caps not are going trou JB why add fatigue to that as well?



Presumably to nerf multi region coalitions that can move sub caps across new eden with a dozen or so jumps&gates.

Seems a bit of a sledge hammer though, punishing the innocent to slightly change the behavior of the guilty.
Sally Hermoine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3540 - 2014-10-02 16:35:02 UTC
Isha Subula wrote:
Sally Hermoine wrote:
CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.

And then we are expected to earn isk? Not possible anymore no where to sell goods noway to move it , minerals are dying in price and will only get worse, for high sec also as noone will buy caps off the market now. They will be just be made locally (which i dont mind too) but the market is gonna go way down, also losing lots of subscribers will just make matters worse. So yeah im not happy :(



and having industrialists in null is a bad thing? Being able to move large quantities of ships, mods whatever from high to null is a part of the problem. Now null pvp'ers will have to stop treating miners like crap and actually accept that they need them to survive.


Can a miner make every tech 2 module? Don't talk stupid to me