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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#3201 - 2014-10-02 12:42:42 UTC
What whining nullbears?

At least on reddit, it's like there's a parade running through the streets. This change seems awesome and there's shocking agreement.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3202 - 2014-10-02 12:42:43 UTC
Gossi91 wrote:
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:
A rough idea of how people feel.

http://strawpoll.me/2686971


49% agree vs. 39% disagree Lol



Let the devs put it up and see how it flies. Honestly, you are happy with 39 percent disagreement ? That should be a good sign that it is not something that should be implemented. How you make my point for me, thank you.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3203 - 2014-10-02 12:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dring Dingle
WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE JUMP FATIGUE?

Seems like an arbitrary "add on" / control mechanism... (which it is) STUPID TIMERS NOOO JUST NO.

Make it something cool AND IMMERSIVE like....

(only talking about ships with jump drives - not everything that uses a portal. Jump freighters would have to be different)

Jumping creates vibrations and things in your ship. DAMAGING your hull.
Then you cannot jump with less than the X% of hull damage you would take based on skills / distance etc. (well you could...... and choose to take the risk of exploding)

That way its player driven. *immersive content* and players can work together to repair each other for the next jump. Even with carriers and capital reps I am pretty sure this takes a long time.

For example
- Thanny has 188,000 structure hp.
- Lets say an unskilled (yes unskilled cause more skillbooks for these things is good right? Roll ) newbie looses 75% of his base structure on a jump.
- Thats leaves him with 47,000 hp remaining.
- If he wants to jump again and not explode he needs to get above 141,000 structure.
- Thats 94,000 hp he needs,
- Even with a Capital hull repairer on a sister / friendly thanny thats 10 minutes of rep from a single RR.
- Yes... he could throw on 5 and do it in 2 minutes. But thats 2 minutes of repping in potentially unfriendly space unable to jump out and vulnerable to attack.. (not to mention you only have 25% capacitor remaining AND the capacitor tax of repairing with that many RR Hull repairers. Exhibit A - http://gyazo.com/592684ff40b0e3a134977fa10694c756) Just to emphasis how thirsty the reps are.... obviously not a serious fit.
- Bottom line - its going to take a while.
- Caps are going to have to jump in considerably compromised.
- This wont affect Black ops ships as badly because they can rep faster with more efficient mods.
- A reduction in jump range is still excellent.

Even if this all sounds ridiculous... it to me... sounds way less ridiculous THAN A TIMER YOU HAVE TO WATCH IN THE CORNER OF THE SCREEN AND THAT YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT. GIVE US SAND FOR THE SANDBOX. DONT TAKE IT AWAY. :P

COM'ON IMMERSIVE CONTENT CCP <3

o7 Dringy
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#3204 - 2014-10-02 12:44:35 UTC
Pl0x crai moar. My martini needs more tears for flavor. Thx.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3205 - 2014-10-02 12:44:44 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
If you think that way then there's no reason to complain, CCP is doing its part. What's delusional is playing a MMO and not taking responsibility for the own actions or thinking that players have no influence here - just watch the CSM or the influence of Fanfest, etc. The way people react to certain things like the cyno exploit that made CCP change something. We all knew this was coming and the past months have been quite the "boost" for CCP to ensure something is changing about nullsec.

Leaders of the coalitions could've been able to change something to avoid such harsh measures, now you've gotta deal with it. Either leave, biomass your **** or try to be helpful for once and stop blaming CCP for your own mess.

You seem to be reading something into my posts which I'm not putting there, because barring the severity of the "fatigue" and the fact I'm not sure nullsec as a whole is ready for the limitation they're looking to put on JFs, I'm all on board with these changes. So uh, yeah.


I'm pretty sure CCP will adjust the 5LY to something more realistic like 7-8LY, which should be fine. The fatigue should be lowered a bit, too - tons of other stuff to be taken care of like new NPC space in every region, racial fuel, moons, t2 production in general, etc.

But the direction is a right one and I'm glad that you agree. I'm not reading something into your posts, I just hate the neglect of taking responsiblity for the actions of your own alliance or blaming CCP for this. Yes they provided a crappy sov system - but it worked for years for smaller alliances, lots of wars and fun.

You could say that it's the players' fault for building so many damn titans and supercarriers as well.

The problem is that the eve of 5 years ago is radically different from the eve of today, we've built up a lot more resources, which means we've got a lot more of the big shiny toys which in turn means that we get unintended consequences which CCP hasn't thought of, and now have to deal with because the players are tuned into how to best utilize them to win. And telling players "stop trying to win, god damnit" is placing the blame in entirely the wrong court.

As for the 5LY and fatigue etc, I'd be surprised if that didn't get tweaked somewhat. You could even go back to the old levels and just add a 6 hour cooldown as the maximum cap, and still mostly get the same strategic behavioral changes.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3206 - 2014-10-02 12:45:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
@Greyscale Thanks for taking a second pass at Black Ops. You might want to consider a JF-style role bonus for reducing the jump shock for black ops bridged ships (with numbers appropriately tweaked) as a starting point.


We'll have a look at that.


Sweet, so you are going to allow us to use Black Ops ships to circumvent your jump fatigue rules to get us between ship caches (which given up unil recently you needed BS5 for a capital, the vast majority of us have th skills for). Doesn't that completely break your ethos of:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Reasoning here is that in most cases, pilots are a bigger bottleneck than ships - building a carrier chain to move your cap pilots around is simpler and more cost-effective than building an alt chain to move your carrier around. We could put a timer on both, but we'd rather keep it simple (plus it's really hard to persist things on ships that get repackaged).


I get that you hate sov-holders, but your going to have to suck it up and nerf the guys who prey on us too
Ren Kavik
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3207 - 2014-10-02 12:45:36 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Ren Kavik wrote:
So Lord TGR... You mean to say that CCP intented null to be stale dead and borring except for the once in a decade BRB5...

Intended, no, probably not. Caused, yes.

Then again, they do play off of the "HOLY **** x THOUSAND PEOPLE IN A SINGLE SYSTEM ALL FIGHTING EACHOTHER" or "x TRILLION ISK DAMAGE CAUSED IN ONE EPIC FIGHT" card, so I guess you could say that their inaction has been because they intended to use that as advertisement, and now they might finally be seeing the error of their ways.


Yes there is truth in that.
But at the same time i dont think they meant null to be stale dead and borring.
I would think they would of wanted to have a win-win.
Instead of a win-loss situation.
Imagine if the news of nullsec being stale dead and boring got picked up by the media and they linked that to ccp trying to make their game seem more interesting in the media at the exspense of player enjoyment.
That doesnt sound like good advertisement to me.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3208 - 2014-10-02 12:46:23 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
If you think that way then there's no reason to complain, CCP is doing its part. What's delusional is playing a MMO and not taking responsibility for the own actions or thinking that players have no influence here - just watch the CSM or the influence of Fanfest, etc. The way people react to certain things like the cyno exploit that made CCP change something. We all knew this was coming and the past months have been quite the "boost" for CCP to ensure something is changing about nullsec.

Leaders of the coalitions could've been able to change something to avoid such harsh measures, now you've gotta deal with it. Either leave, biomass your **** or try to be helpful for once and stop blaming CCP for your own mess.

You seem to be reading something into my posts which I'm not putting there, because barring the severity of the "fatigue" and the fact I'm not sure nullsec as a whole is ready for the limitation they're looking to put on JFs, I'm all on board with these changes. So uh, yeah.

It will hurt a lot of people and won't solve the problem. CFC can still get still get there, they have made a new type of fleet with this change, 300 man roaming slow cats, but now you can't just drop suppers on them because they are out of range and you can't get them out.

And this carrier roaming fleet will catch who, again? The deaf, dumb and blind?

The sov. It will become an unstoppable rapetrain of sov grinding remote repping power.

They're changing the sov next, hopefully.
LtCol RTButts
Abandon AII Hope
#3209 - 2014-10-02 12:46:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to getting this significant set of improvements for Nullsec released!

Big thanks to the whole CSM for their help with this process so far and the good work I know they'll continue to do as we consult with them going forward.

I want to remind people that this is just one step. We're not expecting it to fix everything overnight but it will be a very valuable step forward that we will keep building upon.


you missed out the best part of this "improvement". CCP also fixed a big portion of TiDi issues for the futur.
Alyssa Severasse
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#3210 - 2014-10-02 12:47:43 UTC
I do agree force projection is bad for the game overall, and having some way to restrict this (especially for supers) will make the game have broader appeal and open up null to smaller entities.

Blackops however is a specialist type of force projection that does not have the same impact on the game, and for those people doing it creates an enjoyable form of game play. It does not have the same level of power creep or force multiplication that cynoing in a super fleet has.

Logistics however is a larger concern - if you cannot reliably get stuff out to the depths of Null then your options are either to slow-boat it out there or build it locally. You won't have the T2 materials to build anything T2, so can only build T3 or T1 items. People are not going to slow-boat stuff onto to the depths of null - logistics is already time consuming enough and this game is meant to be fun. It's hard enough for me to supply our corp/alliance at the moment and we are only in Black Rise!

So I'd like to present some options for consideration. I like the idea of the jump cool-down timers, but I'd put some caveats in:

* Bridging does not cause the timer, only activating the jump drive *in* a ship causes the effect. Bridging stuff from a titan should always be an option, and is a form of force projection that is not as bad as supers. You can still in theory move pilots a long way with a titan network or jump bridges, but this is the same as using a star gate effectively!

* The size of the effect is related to the size of the ship itself, and affects the ship as well as (or instead of) the pilot. Otherwise people *will* create transport alts to move stuff around and you create more of a 'pay-to-win' scenario. You should be able to drop your supers if you have them, but maybe not as often as you'd like, or as far as you'd like. They'll need to cool down a lot afterwards.

* The timer is based on total distance from the start system. So jumping back does not increase the timer. Make it a bit like jet-lag in that respect. This means that your blops team isn't that badly affected. It also means if I'm bouncing a carrier between two stations to relocate ships I'm not boned by a jump timer.

* Do not screw with jump freighters. You want people to play in Null? Let them get stuff there *or* consider some kind of in-game freighter service (sorry Black Frog) that can move your stuff for you, at a cost and timescale. This creates an ISK sink, can have a risk factor associated with it, and solves the headache of moving stuff to the depths of null-sec.
Yur Solomon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3211 - 2014-10-02 12:48:25 UTC
there are no words to express my pain: but seeing all this s**t . I want to say - WTF: I tired nerf and boost., please make the graphics better, make the interiors of the stations, cabins in masers and the titans.. I'll buy the account in star citizen, I feel it's time
why in one patch you're ruining what people reached for years..Evil
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#3212 - 2014-10-02 12:48:37 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Gossi91 wrote:
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:
A rough idea of how people feel.

http://strawpoll.me/2686971


49% agree vs. 39% disagree Lol



Let the devs put it up and see how it flies. Honestly, you are happy with 39 percent disagreement ? That should be a good sign that it is not something that should be implemented. How you make my point for me, thank you.

True, we should aim for 80% voting against like the US bank bailout. DOUBLE ALL THE TIMERS NAO!

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
J'aghatai
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3213 - 2014-10-02 12:49:05 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
If you think that way then there's no reason to complain, CCP is doing its part. What's delusional is playing a MMO and not taking responsibility for the own actions or thinking that players have no influence here - just watch the CSM or the influence of Fanfest, etc. The way people react to certain things like the cyno exploit that made CCP change something. We all knew this was coming and the past months have been quite the "boost" for CCP to ensure something is changing about nullsec.

Leaders of the coalitions could've been able to change something to avoid such harsh measures, now you've gotta deal with it. Either leave, biomass your **** or try to be helpful for once and stop blaming CCP for your own mess.

You seem to be reading something into my posts which I'm not putting there, because barring the severity of the "fatigue" and the fact I'm not sure nullsec as a whole is ready for the limitation they're looking to put on JFs, I'm all on board with these changes. So uh, yeah.

It will hurt a lot of people and won't solve the problem. CFC can still get still get there, they have made a new type of fleet with this change, 300 man roaming slow cats, but now you can't just drop suppers on them because they are out of range and you can't get them out.

just herobubble the whole route, needs less then 10 pilots to be a major pita.
Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
#3214 - 2014-10-02 12:49:12 UTC
Richie Kane wrote:
Wow, you CCP people really want to mess up people going to null space. I'm a logistics pilot, I cover an entire alliance single handedly, we live in NPC 0.0


Interesting.


Also, i've read all 163/164 pages of this thread and I'm feeling a bit faint.

Does anyone happen to know the LD50 on nullbear-tears?



I love how people are making complaints like:
"oh, this is so stupid, now it would take like 20 jumps to get all my stuff from deep null to Jita?! That's rediculous!",
"wait, are you suggesting I won't be able to live out of deep null-sec by making daily trips to and from high-sec easily?!",
and
"this is so stupid, what CCP isn't considering is that it's impossible to live in nullsec if you can't easily reach high sec!"

It's just silly.
I'm very excited, well done CCP.

Awesome changes, cannot wait. <3
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3215 - 2014-10-02 12:49:14 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


QFT, let small gang pvp live again.


Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet.
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3216 - 2014-10-02 12:50:56 UTC
as the ex CCP devs that went to RIOT (league of lulz) say.. why break the meta if the players made it into what it is with the tools the devs gave us.
Zeratul Kerrigan
#3217 - 2014-10-02 12:50:59 UTC
Well, gonna be a weird christmas without eve.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#3218 - 2014-10-02 12:51:03 UTC
Yur Solomon wrote:
there are no words to express my pain: but seeing all this s**t . I want to say - WTF: I tired nerf and boost., please make the graphics better, make the interiors of the stations, cabins in masers and the titans.. I'll buy the account in star citizen, I feel it's time
why in one patch you're ruining what people reached for years..Evil

I can haz your lootz and sov?

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3219 - 2014-10-02 12:51:05 UTC
Ren Kavik wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Ren Kavik wrote:
So Lord TGR... You mean to say that CCP intented null to be stale dead and borring except for the once in a decade BRB5...

Intended, no, probably not. Caused, yes.

Then again, they do play off of the "HOLY **** x THOUSAND PEOPLE IN A SINGLE SYSTEM ALL FIGHTING EACHOTHER" or "x TRILLION ISK DAMAGE CAUSED IN ONE EPIC FIGHT" card, so I guess you could say that their inaction has been because they intended to use that as advertisement, and now they might finally be seeing the error of their ways.


Yes there is truth in that.
But at the same time i dont think they meant null to be stale dead and borring.
I would think they would of wanted to have a win-win.
Instead of a win-loss situation.
Imagine if the news of nullsec being stale dead and boring got picked up by the media and they linked that to ccp trying to make their game seem more interesting in the media at the exspense of player enjoyment.
That doesnt sound like good advertisement to me.

I'm fairly certain what you're looking at is probably a mixture of CCP loving the press the big fights get them, CCP not keeping up with what's happening, and when they started to look at it they hit a wall of "oh holy **** our code is terrible we can't fix this easily".

And with that, unintended consequences have lead us to the current situation.
Black Ambulance
#3220 - 2014-10-02 12:51:39 UTC
RIP BlackFrog logistics