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[Hyperion] Incursion changes on Sisi now

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-08-12 18:46:26 UTC
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#102 - 2014-08-12 18:51:10 UTC
Will the scout sites spawn in lowsec?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2014-08-12 18:53:04 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

Hope you are all having a wonderful summer. We have some small, iterative, changes for Incursions that we are hoping to release with Hyperion and would love your feedback on them.


  • Assault systems for Incursions will now never be just NCNs. At most NCNs can only take up 50% of the sites.
  • The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
  • Scout site rewards, and spawns, have been re-balanced.


The scout site changes are what we would really love some feedback on. We have attempted to up their reward (text changes in the client still to come) and up their difficulty.

The idea is that if you run these sites with 5 people they should be profitable to run, but not as profitable as Vanguards. While we have given them a balance pass, we think they probably need a bit more of a buff. Before we do that though we would love your feedback on how they are now.

When offering feedback on the scout sites if you could let us know what kind of fleet you ran it with and how long it was taking you to complete them broken down by which site you were running.

Hope you enjoy and thanks for the feedback guys.


If you could look at the mechanics of Niarja Myelen spawning in HQ sites, it'd be greatly appreciated. We've been having issues with Niarjas jamming stuff before they appear on grid / overview.
Gettz Squall
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-08-12 20:31:43 UTC
Just please dont nerf hisec incursion .
Gettz Squall
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2014-08-12 20:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gettz Squall
colera deldios wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
[quote=Sniper Smith][quote=CCP FoxFour]...


Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk...


Why are so mad with hisec incursion?, just roll a toon and join the community . There are a risk for running hisec incursion. not to mentioned that we all need to queue to join the fleet and contest with other incursion community too
colera deldios
#106 - 2014-08-12 20:55:00 UTC
Gettz Squall wrote:
colera deldios wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
[quote=Sniper Smith][quote=CCP FoxFour]...


Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk...


Why are so mad with hisec incursion?, just roll a toon and join the community . There are a risk for running hisec incursion. not to mentioned that we all need to queue to join the fleet and contest with other incursion community too



What ?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#107 - 2014-08-12 22:03:49 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
...

Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times?

--

I'd like a clarification..
Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother..

Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window.

Which is it?


The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.


This is a really, really bad idea.

Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.

Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#108 - 2014-08-12 22:11:31 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


This is a really, really bad idea.

Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.

Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.

So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all?

Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
colera deldios
#109 - 2014-08-12 22:28:12 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


This is a really, really bad idea.

Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.

Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.

So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all?

Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them.



So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2014-08-12 22:47:11 UTC
colera deldios wrote:

So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.


Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull.
Gettz Squall
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-08-12 23:03:50 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:


This is a really, really bad idea.

Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.

Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.

So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all?

Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them.



So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.



Seems like u are the moron
colera deldios
#112 - 2014-08-13 00:09:47 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
colera deldios wrote:

So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.


Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull.



@Gettz Squall

Unless you are utterly ******** you won't get ganked in a blockade runner in HS. A Tengu, Legion or T2 hauler and you can safely carry your cargo I passed 0.5 choke points with my Tengu setup for moving things 9 times moving total of 25b ISK and never got ganked.

Or simply take your ship and do a courier contract of your fit to Red Frog freight with collateral problem solved.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#113 - 2014-08-13 00:28:47 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
colera deldios wrote:

So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.


Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull.



@Gettz Squall

Unless you are utterly ******** you won't get ganked in a blockade runner in HS. A Tengu, Legion or T2 hauler and you can safely carry your cargo I passed 0.5 choke points with my Tengu setup for moving things 9 times moving total of 25b ISK and never got ganked.

Or simply take your ship and do a courier contract of your fit to Red Frog freight with collateral problem solved.

OK, so the point, before you got side-tracked, was 300 to 400 incursion runners (All in BR's if you will) move 1.5 to 10 trillion ISK worth of modules hulls and cargo, when they get displaced and have to move every day, since there is only a 1 day break between killing everything and a new spawn.

Therefore the notion that shortened spawn timers reduced conflict and competition for ISK is; false

Thank you for playing and adding a distraction about ship fitting, eve auto piloting, general ad hominem and several other topics not about the new Scout site mechanics and whether they are good as is, or in need of more tweaking.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2014-08-13 01:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Did another Scout... went with active resists and less buffer... was better, and more comfortable. Between guessing the triggers correctly and having higher resists, it was a lot easier. still took half an hour though.

I've reclaimed some of my confidence after the Ishtar loss in the first run--enough to try a Vanguard tomorrow, possibly tonight. I think a Kronos or Vindicator would be good, as an easy button, I dunno. a turret-based setup so that my DPS isn't vulnerable in the form of drones.

Harder webs would probably be better than long loki webs, too. Vindi or Vigi.

was in Saana again, full red incursion bar, apparently means stuff is reduced, not sure exactly how much.

I also went ahead and plugged in Slave sets and all the 6% implants available. cuz I didn't feel like dying. so it was easier, but I had unrealistic implants in my head (I don't use stuff like that on TQ).

Neuts were fine, DPS was fine, it just took a long time. I'd like to use completely T1 / cheaper ships but I don't see 5x T1 -anything- clearing the DPS and utility and reps efficiently.

I could use a set of nightmares for scouts, but 1.2 - 1.5 Billion ISK per ship in a scout site doesn't really make sense, you know?

Twitch Video of me sucking

Ishtar 1 Logs

Ishtar 2 Logs

Ishtar 3 Logs

Dominix Logs My logi cap battery which I made use of during several logi jams.

Guardian 1 Logs

Guardian 2 Logs

Loki Logs

Gang Fits

Gang Resists

I know. I'm bad. that's why I use links and bring ten+ of me everywhere

Does this mean the payout limit is strictly 5?
Quote:
[ 2014.08.13 00:01:45 ] (notify) Unfortunately only the pilots in the top 5 contributors are eligible for rewards.


after this second run, my verdict is once again: raise the payout number to 7 or higher. I'm pretty sure I'll find it still takes a long time with a complete T1 setup.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
KanashiiKami
#115 - 2014-08-13 02:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
i tried a solo rattle fit

1) first off, when i try a scout site. vespa t2 drones bugged in a rattlesnake. the drones operating panel wont show. i have to release them from cargo panel. and once released, they die almost immediately, like 5 seconds

2) the UI bugs up for rattlesnake on first warp (in the same scenario with all my vespas kinda insta died). while being hit, no damage shows on UI until the BS is pooped. and it seems the invul did not work even though it shows it is active. the ratty was about 76k ehp. on 2nd try, the UI worked. propaganda scout site btw

3) antems 120km away in sites meant for new players, that cant be right. i suppose these should be close combat waves for newer people with lesser nav skills

4) another drone bug? although focus fire is ON, my drones split up and they go gaga over every "red cross". this time using valkyries t2.

5) the jamming is really bad. but expected of arnons, maybe they are bit too much for scout sites?

6) i think these site should have some more tamas or even augas. there should be some more blap factor in sanshas.

7) i think scout sites are triple spider tankable. this would of course make boxers happy. 3 mymidon, spider, drones, some blasters n rails. or drakes n missiles. even DDA. but arnons maybe would kill it.

WUT ???
KanashiiKami
#116 - 2014-08-13 02:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
i dont think scout site should be moulded into a "farmable" site. LP should be kept low to deter afkTAR syndrome. these are indeed for new people to see what is inside incursions. @ 3.5m a site im very sure there are already players with afkTAR farming mode already turned on.

but to be honest, lv3/4 PVE corps will ditch mission to farm scouts. it only takes 3-4 ships, they dont really need a FC, maybe not even a booster. it is spider tankable. its got ISK ! and it will get them to upgrade into VG after about a 100 cycles or so.

im not sure if ECM aggro trick works here, if it does, 1 BS tank + 2 osprey could do the job me thinks

however me thinks if scout are now truly moulded as a stepping stone to VG, then CCP should think LP = ZERO, but ISK = 1.5x

WUT ???
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2014-08-13 02:24:02 UTC
The name calling is fair, man, just remember I don't do Incursions. I'm just curious about the hype, and placing myself here to get a feel for this new Scout site. My fits aren't practical, but after using it I can tell you how the site feels relative to other PVE. I'm well aware that I would get outclassed by regular Incursion groups.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#118 - 2014-08-13 05:00:07 UTC
KanashiiKami wrote:

however me thinks if scout are now truly moulded as a stepping stone to VG, then CCP should think LP = ZERO, but ISK = 1.5x

To put things in comparison.
3.5 Mil isk is well, 3.5 mil isk. 400LP per site = 400k per site at average concord LP values. This isn't some crazy pirate faction LP, this is concord LP, it's hard to move at over 1k and requires bucket loads of tags, which last I knew the market was too high on to make a profit on the LP stores with them. (Tags in LP stores are a separate issue really and overly limit some LP items).
So that 400 LP only adds another 11% or so value.

Doing these sites with 5 Marauders, which are not starting ships but high skill ships which cost more than pirate BS takes 10 minutes a site. That means 5-6 sites an hour (Remembering warp times between sites.)
Even if we say 6 sites an hour, that means a massive..... 24 Million Isk/Hr per pilot including LP.
Even if we somehow drop that to 5 Minutes per site, that's still only 48/Hour.

Pray tell where exactly this massive farming is going to occur? Null beats the pants off that isk rate, with far less value risked, and incursions are not constant, and can be contested, and if you have the bling to drop site times, you are at plenty of PvP risk also.

Quite simply, I can't see how these sites are going to be remotely worth it if 5 Marauders can only earn 24 Million/Hour including LP each.
They need to go back to the drawing board on scout sites, and make them different somehow. Make them about small ships, say.... Cruiser Max. And make them reasonably Isk/Hr competitive.
VG's I'd leave as is, since Vanguards often did have heavy elite troops in historical terms.
Make Assaults BC max, and redesign all the sites to be about mobile BC fleets (Obviously HAC's, T3's & Logi's would still be involved) and ship speed combined with good tank. Fast strike in and back out somehow.
Then you have most ship sizes involved in incursions, Frigates/Destroyers might still get left behind a little but Cruisers are highly accessible to a new player.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#119 - 2014-08-13 07:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyler Hawk
I was able to run a few Scout sites in a solo Paladin at 100% sansha influence (i.e. max system penalties) by MJDing off the warp-in point and sniping things as they approached. Each site took 25-30 minutes to complete, so I guess it'd be 5-6 minutes for a group of 5 using the same fit and tactic (maybe less because higher dps would more rapidly overcome the repping of some of the NPCs). However, it's hard to see what sort of player these sites are geared towards. If they're for newer players with less SP and less tricked-out ships, then they'd almost certainly need a lot more than 5-6 minutes per site because they wouldn't be using marauders and so would have trouble with ewar, worse dps, and much more fragile local tanks. Conversely, anyone who can fly a well-fit marauder could make far more ISK doing vanguards or HQs.

I also think the NPC mix was a bit off - there were a number of sniping NPCs that orbited at 120-140 km and others that orbited at 10-60 km, so you'd need a mix of snipers and short-ranged ships. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but it seems to be more organisation and a tighter fleet comp than you'd need for VGs, which is odd. I got around this by bringing a mobile depot and switching between tachs and mega pulses on the fly.

The Paladin fit was:

[Paladin, incursion scout]
Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Sensor Booster II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Bastion Module I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x10
Sean Sonnach
4S Corporation
The Initiative.
#120 - 2014-08-13 08:04:31 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
@CCP FoxFour

You should be nerfing HS Incursions to the point where the avg. isk/hour is bellow that of 0.0 Instead of giving them even more ISK at no RISK. If you need me to list 30 reasons why HS Incursions should not make as much as 0.0 let me know.


Mara Tessidar wrote:
Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space.



Thick as two short planks.

Incursions spawn in HS/LS/Null - so improving incursions makes null sec more profitable than HS if you have the balls to run them there.

The difference between incursions and most other PVE phew is it really makes people play in fleets, which is one of the best aspects of PVE in the game. Not everyone wants to be a null bear, alone in an empty back end system, ratting risk free 99% of the time, after the first hour of running to cover your hull cost.


These seem like very positive steps. I have believed for a long time that making scout sites viable will lead to a lot more people running incursions in LS and null. Most excellent. I will try to get stats on scouts and times this weekend if i get time, but as you in CCP know, very few people run them so it will take time to get reasonable info.