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[Hyperion] Incursion changes on Sisi now

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2014-08-13 18:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
...

Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times?

--

I'd like a clarification..
Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother..

Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window.

Which is it?


The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.


This is a really, really bad idea.

Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.

Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.

I was thinking maybe Incursions are kept available to match ISK faucets in other parts of the game. moons, wh, anoms, etc. that aren't normally available to the high sec incursion types. also, I recall hearing that EVE's economy is on a deflationary trend, and a fairly recent article of Mynnna's claimed PLEX prices were due to investors (speculators), and not so much EVE is dying. ...or something. don't quote me on that. maybe read it / make your own conclusions.

Mynnna's blog article on stuff http://thethirdn.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/inflation-revisited/

Mynnna's TMC article on PLEX http://themittani.com/features/great-plex-bubble
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-08-13 18:23:11 UTC
Jlust Orin wrote:
Dear CCP!

As a relatively new player (3mill SP) I would like to offer the following insights:

For me to participate in incursion is impossible because

  • Not enough SP for BS or T2 logi
  • Not enough money to buy BS with Shiney / Logi (This one is the lesser problem)




No.

Incursions were added as END GAME PVE. In the same line as the escalations in C6's.. ( WH's require Cap's and fewer numbers.. Incursions no Cap''s but higher numbers ).

They are NOT there for the new player. I'm sorry, but they aren't. Go fleet up with people and run missions till you have the SP.



Scout Sites, as described earlier in the thread, are going to be there for people to make isk while waiting for spots in larger fleets. They aren't going to be worth running just on their own. Though if CCP changed their thinking, and DID make them Viable, like they are trying to do with AS's, then that would be awesome.The more you can spread people out the better.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-08-13 18:25:48 UTC
Oh, btw, to all the Null people crying about how much Incursions make in HS, and how scared they are to run them in Null, I need to lol.

You know what CCP should do, during an Incursion in Sov Null, the Sansha should attack to Sov. POS's, Hub's, Outposts, if ignored to withdraw the Sov should switch to Sansha Nation, with all POS's destroyed, and the alliance needing to grind it all over again.

Maybe that would get those null peeps to actually make money there rather than cry about people making it in HS their own way.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#144 - 2014-08-13 18:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
kinda harsh toward a newbro, but anyway.

I recall something about 'run them while you wait for higher incursion sites' but does that mean it's not meant for newbros? If so, my evaluation of them was completely wrong.

If they're meant for the same people running Vanguards and HQs, then yeah, they're fine. they're noticeably/slightly more difficult than level IV missions (with the exception of some level IVs if you let spawns accumulate).

I just took another look at CCP FoxFour's OP, it would seem yeah it's for bored Incursion people, and I was mistaken for mentioning newbros in my feedback. o7

[side note: not sure I would call Incursions 'end game PVE'.]

btw, you Incursion peeps work too hard for your ISK.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#145 - 2014-08-13 18:47:37 UTC
Inc respawn changes:

Doesn't really help, only forces more movement to everybody and will result into more and faster Inc closings later on. If you want to change, change that you have to do multiple sites a the same time, requiring more people, fleets and more FCs(high sec non Island Incs only). A 2. HQ system could also help, at least it would lessen the contest problems.

Assaults:

Creating a NCN wall should be one of the options for FCs, the reason nobody does NCNs(even with good setups for them) is that they even with that kind of setup take longer than the other sites, what prevents any specialized NCN fleet from existing. Remove a pocket from the NCN and cut the sniper targets in the last pocket in halve, would make the site ok, for people that bring a few spare ships to switch around. Again change NCNs, don't change basic incursion mechanics, that limits the options of FCs.

Scouts

Remove every single ECM from them. ECM is the worst mechanic and the penalties increase a lot by having less ships on grid in scout sites than the other sites. Also cut incoming DPS down to 500-600 DPS, something that should be tank able rather easy in a group(active tank and/or some RR on the hulls). Payouts still look very underwhelming and not really worth the time.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2014-08-13 19:07:49 UTC
now that I don't have to feel guilty about getting all faction battleship about it, I'm going to fit up a vindicator, 3 nightmares, and a basilisk. I feel like I have a bone to pick with these scout sites, and I would like to knock one out of the park. bbialb.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#147 - 2014-08-13 19:33:52 UTC
Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.

Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2014-08-13 20:30:29 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.

Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all.

what was your fit, by the way? just curious, I would like it for my records, if you don't mind sharing it.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2014-08-13 20:43:47 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:

its not a question of money, if you place anything in null only people blue with the two coalitions will be able to run them.
and if you are blue you can run them in wathever ship you want, you just need to look at intel and warp to pos when needed.
if you place them in low only a few people that can hold that system completely locked for the period or friendly with every local denizens will be able to run them, exactly as it happens with level 5 missions.
for everybody else would be suicide.
so basically you arent lowering the isk/sp factor, you are just removing them from most player's reach.


I'm not sure what you mean by isk / sp factor but i never implied that I wanted to see it easier for lower skill point players to make isk I did not even suggest that they get easier access to incursions that was someone else's comment that I was replying to. All that I said was that in high sec incursions it's very difficult to get into a group if you do not have a "blinged out" and "shinny" ship. The isk needed to buy a ship like that is certainly a barrier of entry for newer players that makes finding a fleet difficult for them. Even if you could come up with a fleet of newbies to run them some other high dps fleet could come by and steal all your payouts.

My only comment was that in low sec and null sec I doubt the "shinny" ship prerequisite for getting into fleet that exists in high sec would likely not exist in low or null.

The problem with the large coalitions dominating and locking down almost all of null sec is one that I have commented on else where and is a deviation from this topic and therefore I will not get into it here.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#150 - 2014-08-13 20:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Rain6637 wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.

Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all.

what was your fit, by the way? just curious, I would like it for my records, if you don't mind sharing it.

I would love to share it, but I know it will get misconstrued, but remember this was for fun not for real EVE use.

[Ishtar]

3x Small Remote Armor Repairer II
Automated Targeting Unit I

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400)
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
2x Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Internal Force Field Array I
4x Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II

5x Garde II
5x Warden II
5x Warrior II
2x Gecko


I had to much crap in my Orca when the last server update happened so they were Faction and Deadspace fit, not something you want to do on TQ as they wouldn't survive 5 catalyst. But I guess if you got the toys might as well play with them.

Edit: I know, Never armour and shield tank, the idea was to use the ASB's and if they broke then spider with the remote armour repairs. So don't tell me about the fail fits I don't care.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#151 - 2014-08-13 21:08:25 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,


  • The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.


I'd like a clarification..
Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother..

Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window.

Which is it?

Also, I would like it if you adjusted incursion so that the mom doesn't spawn as soon as influence is 0.. I mean even it just making it not span till the next dt.. or earliest it'll spawn is 48hrs after the Incursion spawned.. something so we don't have to move every day.. or if as I read, the spawn's start to happen instantly, we might be looking at 5 or so incursions a day.. that's just insane for BS fleets to move..

Some degree of stability would be much appreciated.



you nee to re-read that, the quote says the respwn time between when the site has ended (i.e. despawned) and respawns has been lowered

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#152 - 2014-08-13 21:22:04 UTC
Tragot Gomndor wrote:
currently running distress beacon...
setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits

too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only got to the second spawn, i hope theres not another... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D

edit: okay, we got a third spawn, so we ragequited

for everyone else, each spawn had 8 cruisers, some frigs, first spawn had 4-6 ecm cruiser, second spawn had a fleeing cruiser, moved to 150km...


I had to lol.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Mr Lexon
The Tebo Corp
Herd Of Cats
#153 - 2014-08-13 21:51:58 UTC
HI!

I am a new player, still skilling basic skills, and I flay all frigates. What I like to see is Missions, WH and Incursions based on high skilled users just flying frigates. It takes so long to skill all ships. When hig skilled at frigates, it will allow me to do what high skilled users do, and high skilled users on Crusers and other ships might not have all skills on frigs and pay may not attract them. There are other places do go to earn more and get challenges. I live in a small corp in higsec and cannot go and do what the high skilled users do in there shining ships. It will take me years to get there. But I fly frigates well and still there is no WH for me, there is no Incursion for me. And there is now L4 missions for me. That makes me feel like low priory “citizen” of eve. I have to skill for yers to do the “cool” stuff. Still I am high skilled on frig, and I want to do everything that others do in a more limited whey.
I think bay now that you get may point!

I think that different aspects of the game should be more tailored to what a user can achieve in 1 year, 2 year and so on. I think that L4 missions, WH and Incursions for frigates and small gang groups is the right way to move because it allows a low skilled ship users but still high skilled otherwise to play the game at a more fulfilling extent.

I do not now all things that has to be done, but I think you all know what I mean.

Excuse my English, it is not may native language.

Regards…
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#154 - 2014-08-13 22:03:58 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
12. Spamming is prohibited.

Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words “first”, “go back to (insert other game name)” and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Leviathan Wakes
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2014-08-14 00:17:07 UTC
There are a few problems with the new scout sites, but that's all personal opinion so it's irrelevant.

However there is one problem that still stands out in the new Distress Beacon. "Your primary objective is to assist a civilian Orca-class vessel" If we are to assist the stranded Orca why is it that we can still blow it up without any consequences.

Plz CCP help me not shoot the stranded Orca!
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2014-08-14 01:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
o7 thanks Goldiiee. I like your style, for the utility highs and the X-L ancie. [I also know who you are and I'm sure you have your reasons for incursion fits].

I have a question for you. is RR simply the way to do scout sites, due to the 5 ship payout limit? like, is bringing logistics simply not worth it? if scout sites are meant for existing incursion groups, does that mean the best combination of ships is the very same RR battleships used in higher level Incursion sites?

I would use 5 RR Nightmares, but I'm bringing a Vindicator because I think it will be fun. I'm also bringing a basilisk because it's my crutch / afk buffer for multiboxing. I see the incursion fits on eve-isn.com, and I'm using something slightly different. 2 energy transfers on the basi because Vindicator [doesn't have utility highs], and no basi buddy. I also had to go with T2 hardeners because Sisi, and double up.

I'm using Mega Pulse because DPS and tracking, and the rats are close enough, unless they all scatter (if they kite out of Scorch range I'll just call it a draw and **** off).

disclaimers aside, would you share whatever comes to mind regarind this plan I've come up with? I'm just trying to have fun / pwn a scout site (and reclaim my dignity), and I expect I'll accidentally trigger waves. but. maybe you could share some incursion insight regarding the effectiveness of some strategies over others. I'd be interested to hear it.

with links:

3 Mega Pulse nightmares; loaded with Multifrequency, loaded with Scorch
1 Vindicator
1 Basilisk
(Basi implants... HG-10 is left over from Ishtars, whatev. Talisman because I dunno. If it's nearly free, Snake would probably be better.)

[With F-23 remote sebos I could trade a cap transfer for a shield... but with so many reps in gang I'd rather have a ranged cap transfer. Republic Fleet LSE would be nice too, but special stuff / Sisi]

I also have a spare nightmare and basilisk on standby, but I probably won't make it on grid in time to keep myself from dying and feeling stupid. I just fitted them up cuz... I dunno. and I can't bring them in without distracting the rats.

as for ECM, if it only gets stronger til it lands, might as well just accept it (rather than dedicate modules to it. yeah i could stand to train those comps Lol )

With practice I would start reducing tank, but compared to the Ishtars from yesterday, these Nightmares have 1/3 the speed, 3x the signature radius, and lower resists. the tank is just caution. I realize Incursion groups need to bring as much DPS as possible, and cut the tank down nothing (and this gang is nowhere near shiny incursion standard).

but regarding that:

I've heard that incursion groups require 80% omni resists. Do you achieve that with a single Pith-A type Invuln and a T1 Anti-EM rig on a Nightmare? Even under links I'm not getting those numbers in EFT (eve-isn fits)



BTW... regarding this message... how exactly do ships make the cutoff for top 5, between logi and DPS:

Quote:
[ 2014.08.13 00:01:45 ] (notify) Unfortunately only the pilots in the top 5 contributors are eligible for rewards.


and it's a hard limit of 5, not a diminishing return thing beyond 5?
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-08-14 07:24:08 UTC
for those of you with the stance of incursions being end game PVE:


based upon content difficulty alone, there are only two requirements to clear an incursion site of any level:

that your dps ships are at least equivalent to a t1 fit BC (70% resists)
and that you have the equivalent of 2 logistics cruisers per squad of pilots.


you do not need anything higher skill or isk wise than that to beat an incursion.

now:

the reason incursions call for 'end game officer stuff' is PURELY due to player fleet competition and need for progression (progression being 'to get better/be the best at' whatever we're trying to do)

in terms of the sites themselves, the PVE itself, incursions do not require what you indicate as 'end game content' they require barely mid game content to clear.

now: if they did anything that wasn't a bling fit battleship fleet (this is the important part) WOULD NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO COMPLETE SITE OBJECTIVES (it would be impossible/incredibly pointless to damage/tank against incursion sites with anything less than officer modules on perfectly fit ships (10-25% margin for error on 'perfectly fit')

what you're calling end game content isn't end game content because if it was the mechanics never would have been used (too difficult, people would have not invested bling fleets on release day to clear these, thus the difficulty had to be scaled relative to the kinds of fleets ccp figured people were going to invest into the content - in order to get a large enough audience that they could call the content a success)

@CCP - DO NOT interpret the above as an excuse to simply increase damage and HP for incursions as a whole to make them 'more difficult' that's not where combat difficulty comes from, it simply makes the event/action more tedious 'more of the same it had before' is only an improvement in terms of quantity, and that's not what PVE content needs atm.

now, for the rest of us, the idea of this thread is to provide feedback on scout sites, assault changes and re spawn timers.

it is not for contesting the same argument of 'oh the system's out of balance because we (all of eve's players) use it in a way that makes it unbalanced'

this has been repeated enough, and if we want things to change on this front then we go change it ourselves, CCP's been buried under this argument plenty already, if they figured it was something they needed to fix for us they'd have done so.

Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#158 - 2014-08-14 11:27:43 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:


I have a question for you. is RR simply the way to do scout sites, due to the 5 ship payout limit? like, is bringing logistics simply not worth it? if scout sites are meant for existing incursion groups, does that mean the best combination of ships is the very same RR battleships used in higher level Incursion sites?


Well I am not Goldiiee but you can simply use a single Scimi or Oni, if it catches agro you need a ship with 1-2 remote reps to keep it alive, my preferred hulls for that are Vargur(with A type medium Pith) or Paladin(T2 large RR), simply because of the utility, spare target slots to keep a Logi locked(not really required with the tank on a normal Oni) and long RR runtime. The same thing works for VGs to and is highly preferable over pure RR BS, because it is less restraining on capacitor on the BS and adds tracking links.

Rain6637 wrote:
but regarding that:

I've heard that incursion groups require 80% omni resists. Do you achieve that with a single Pith-A type Invuln and a T1 Anti-EM rig on a Nightmare? Even under links I'm not getting those numbers in EFT (eve-isn fits)


Resist requirements depending on the group(some go more tanky than others) and the size of the site(VG need less than HQ). Lowest VG standard is probably something around 55%. I got 60% explosive on my one slot tanked armor NM after boosts as lowest resist, what gives 1478 sustained dps tank with a single Oni on the field and is enough for VGs from my experience dual boxing a solo logi. ISN isn't a particular tanky channel and they often fly on the low end when it comes to tank to spare more slots for other stuff.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#159 - 2014-08-14 11:55:11 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:

What you say here is just not true. They just made drone changes to have a more linear increase with benefit from skill and more base damage without increasing all level 5 damage so that is one example of a change which helps low SP players without helping high SP players.

I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"

However none of that is really important here as I was commenting to Nevyn on how what he suggested doesn't really change the options currently open to newbies now and how the real barrier for entry was not skills but availability to fleet and isk.

You are missing the point. Yes, my proposal would allow T3's & Logi or RR T3's to run the sites. But there are generally a number of scout systems in an Incursion. And those T3's & Logi can also run the higher end ones that pay out more.
Meaning that it is unlikely for a small fleet of T1 cruisers to get contested consistently, allowing them to experience the content and get the capital to upgrade to those T3 & T2 ships we are discussing. Simply because there are enough sites for them to do so. And if all you had to risk was T1 cruiser hulls (Or T2 Frig hulls) then the proposed level of payout would also be reasonable.

Your idea of adding 'Randomness & Wipes' actually will have the opposite effect to what you are wanting though. Because if it can wipe a T3 gang, then it will roll over a T1 Cruiser gang without even noticing it happened. So people will insist on T3 gang with Deadspace fittings to be able to handle the randomness and survive the worst case scenario. Meaning you have just shut the new guys out even more than before, not opened it up to them.
Yuri Semah
Dead Corporation 10985
#160 - 2014-08-14 12:39:50 UTC
A few days ago I had the pleasure to run some scout sites with other pilots on Singularity.

Our setup:
1 Basilisk, 2 Nightmares with Tachyons, 2 Machariels with 1400s

Long range guns are pretty much a must-have as otherwise you won't be able to hit the Vylades (orbit at 120 km) and Antems (orbit at 140 km). For the same reason there is no Vindicator: There is just not enough stuff in web range. I believe that this mix of prate faction battleships and T2 logi is a good representation of what is currently flown in other incursion sites.

So... a Propagande Center took us about 25 min. to complete. Maybe we got really unlucky with the spawns. Maybe we weren't paying as much attention to the site running as we could have. I am pretty sure that our fits were not optimized for these scout sites. Still, 3-4 times as long as a Vanguard site for a third of the payout - no one is going to run these while waiting for a Vanguard fleet to form. No one.

Skyler Hawk wrote:
I was able to run a few Scout sites in a solo Paladin at 100% sansha influence (i.e. max system penalties) by MJDing off the warp-in point and sniping things as they approached. Each site took 25-30 minutes to complete, ...


That a single Marauder is as fast as 4 pirate battleships leads me to believe that there is a huge difference between the sites and their seperate spawns. There doesn't seem to be any balance at all. Also, why is there a bomber (Lirsautton Parichaya) on grid, a ship that should only appear in the mothership site (you know, where there is an actual mothership to spew it out)? To me it seems like CCP took all the incursion rats, removed those that warp dirsupt and the battleships, threw the rest in a blender and that's how the new scout sites came to be.


CCP, please:
1. Remove the Arnons. A few jamming frigates are OK, but cruisers are simply overkill and make the scout sites harder than Vanguards in that regard.
2. Make the sites much, much shorter. If you want those sites to be run at all they must make at least 30m ISK/h (in my opinion). That is about half of what a slow Vanguard fleet (= all T1 battleships without fancy modules) makes. To do that you may have to remove 70-80% of the EHP in the sites.
3. Balance the sites. Make sure that every site takes roughly the same time to complete. Also please don't just throw seemingly random rats at us. In Vanguard sites you have shown us that you can do better (even though it took a few years to get there Big smile).
4. Make sure that payout works properly. At one point I got a full payout even though there were 7 payable ships on grid and in the same fleet. I'm pretty sure something's not working as intended.