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Material Efficiency skill changed to Advanced Industry

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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2014-07-16 12:37:41 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
I'm not even sure what i find more outrageous, the change itself or the fact that 6 days before the patch going live, not a single dev answered those complaints.

Instead only a CSM member who just happens to be industrialist (i.e. the ONLY group not suffering from that change) chimes in with stupid arguments.

this change ONLY affects industrialists not everyone but
Amari Jackson
Zacharia Explorations Group
#62 - 2014-07-16 12:38:16 UTC
Now that I think about it...why am i trying to convince my competition this is a good change?

CCP! REFUND SP NOW!!!!!
Amari Jackson
Zacharia Explorations Group
#63 - 2014-07-16 12:42:26 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
Amari Jackson wrote:
"What about time wasted???" - well, hopefully you got some usage out of it while it was more relevant, and after the changes, hopefully you'll get some usage out of the new benefits.


Training the learning skills was put to use, as well, when you had it. The skills were removed, and SP was refunded.

Amari Jackson wrote:

"What about the SP wasted???" - well, CCP doesn't refund skill points for things that are still in game and can still be useful. And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.


That's the kicker: the skill doesn't exist any more. Previously, the skill gave a significant bonus to materials. That skill was removed. The new skill, Advanced Industry, has a very small bonus to time. They're completely different skills with a completely different purpose.


I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think of it as a skill change. Others see it as a removal and addition. I can see it both ways.
Gabriel Quill
Reject Memes
#64 - 2014-07-16 12:45:40 UTC
I can understand the argument to keep jimmies in order, but I don't understand what the argument is against refunding the SP. If this new skill is worth it then people will use those SP toward training it. There's no downside to refunding the SP, and doing so makes this issue go away.
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-07-16 12:49:46 UTC
It's a change, but it's changing a very valuable skill to an indirectly related and arguably not very valuable skill.

If I do round the clock production, which I generally don't as I do T2 modules, I would save 1.5 days per month with the 5% time reduction, all other factors being equal.

However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.

I'd say just remove this skill entirely and refund the SP. I can't think of a less exciting skill to max out. Unless you count the new 'refining skills' where I folks get to sit on the edge of their seat waiting for 'Veldspar 5' to complete.


afkboss
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2014-07-16 12:53:16 UTC
If CCP remove a skill they need to refund the skillpoints, not just replace it with something completely fkn useless.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-07-16 13:05:23 UTC
and nothing of value was lost
Pie Napple
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-07-16 13:07:55 UTC
I have nothing against the new skill, but i agree that is not worth the train. Its simply too much sp for what it does.

I would prefer if the new skill was changed from a x3 skill to a x2 or even x1 skill, everyone should get the new skill at the same level as the old and the extra sp refunded.

That way there wont be as much wasted sp and no one have to go out and buy new skillbooks.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#69 - 2014-07-16 13:10:33 UTC
Pie Napple wrote:
I have nothing against the new skill, but i agree that is not worth the train. Its simply too much sp for what it does.

I would prefer if the new skill was changed from a x3 skill to a x2 or even x1 skill, everyone should get the new skill at the same level as the old and the extra sp refunded.

That way there wont be as much wasted sp and no one have to go out and buy new skillbooks.


that is also a perfectly viable option

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Doug Dannger
Virtual Eclipse Industrial Technology
#70 - 2014-07-16 13:25:51 UTC
At this point I don't care. They're taking a working established system their players have spent 1000s of hours iterating upon and making tools to share and use, and dumping it all on its head just to change it for the sake of changing it.

Making my skills useless is just the icing on the cake and adding insult to injury.
Axe Coldon
#71 - 2014-07-16 13:29:27 UTC
I vote for a refund also. We are getting screwed enough on this change..don't add this to the list.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2014-07-16 13:31:43 UTC
I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if a dev has responded.

I don't have the time to treat eve as another job but I do produce stuff on a small scale via an alt. I see a real benefit when producing something if I have a skill that reduces the materials needed for the job. I do NOT receive benefit when I have jobs completing 5% faster.

Please refund the SP and allow people to buy this skill book. This would give the no-lifers a benefit they really want and will allow the rest of us to find another home for the orphaned SP.
Erich Shephard
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#73 - 2014-07-16 13:46:02 UTC
I'll try to be brief. I am a relatively new player, only in-game since October, 2013, and I have selected Industry with a couple alts as my primary ISK-making endeavor.

I feel like the change to the Material Efficiency skill, moving it from a material to a time efficiency effect, has virtually eliminated its value to me. I've worked for months training science and production skills, developing spreadsheets and bookmarked trade routes through hostile space, readying myself for running a T2 production and distribution line. Since I am so new, I don't have the connections yet to be part of a larger industrial network, and am striking it out on my own with myself, a couple alts, and a friend or two. I had no intention of trying to compete with the big boys in Jita or even Hek, nor am I selling capital components or T3 subsystems. I don't have the skills, networks, or knowledge for that kind of thing yet. But I am a hell of a lot more prepared and advanced than those noobs flipping T1 EANMs in Hek.

Except now I'm not. My Material Efficiency V skill no longer provides me any advantage (T2 modules and drones sold in markets that don't have the demand to accept 5% more without a 5% drop in prices). Access to copy and research slots is now (well, not now, but soon) blown wide open. Sure, I have the advantage of knowing to use buy orders, and I get some boost in invention chance, but the availability of copy/research slots and the Material Efficiency skill were really the only two things differentiating me from a month-old toon. I still have a lot that separates me from a seasoned T3 industrialist or a ship builder, but it seems like all the work that separated me from a T1 module builder has been for nothing.

I can see why the move from Material Efficiency to Advanced Industry would be worthwhile for ship builders and others in low-volume high margin production, but at the other end, it isn't worthwhile, and won't be for quite some time. All things being equal, I'd rather have the old barrier to competition back. Since that is not going to be an option, the skillpoints will be fine too. I'll probably end up training Advanced Industry V anyway, but in 2-3 years when I have an incentive to. Until then, I can think of a dozen skills I'd train first.
Aloh
Migrant-Fleet
#74 - 2014-07-16 13:55:17 UTC
Just my .02 isk

Respectfully to the CSM member the bonus you state as a replacement advantage only matters if you have your character
building constantly. If you build to need or to replace losses it has zero effect on your bottom line. The numbers of characters that will see an actual benefit here will be few.

My take on this is that CCP sees training time as income. Refunding skill points would then be reducing possible income.
It is my opinion they don't want to do that.

To the people that want skill refunds, (again my opinion ) not going to happen.
Look at the leadership skills. I think it was race relations, the skill allowed you to have more members in your corp that were not the same race as you are. They nuked it just like they are nuking this one. Instead of refunding the skill points they changed it into a BS skill for dealing with concord agents or something like that.

You didn't get much warning that one was coming either.

I answered CCPs industry changes survey when they put it out, it seems I was in the minority.
I have unsubbed my industry toon and unless I see that I am missing the point of the changes the only activity that account will have will be to plex the account and move him next door to hisec and sell off the ships and items he used for industry.
Other then one break this is the first time since 2007 he has not been training.

It is a shame he has every industry skill in the game and the only things he can not build right now is a titan or the last level of a outpost upgrade. 90 odd million skill points is just too much for a cyno alt....
H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-07-16 13:55:41 UTC
Having Mat. Eff. at 5 never gave you a benefit but rather eliminated a penalty. Every serious producer has it at 5 already otherwise he couldnt compete. I also dont get why suddenly everyone is suprised about the change...it was outlined in the indy-devblog pack, 2 months ago, that the skill would be changed to something less powerful (devblogs said reduction in installation costs).

In its current iteration Mat. Eff. is a too powerful skill as was Drone interfacing.
Claudius Dethahal
Amarrians for Tax Reform-Kador
#76 - 2014-07-16 14:01:45 UTC
It's not just that it's a reduction in power, the change also only benefits a subset of producers.

To me the lack of communication seems to indicate that CCP knew it was a pretty unfair trade.
Kage Kugisa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-07-16 14:10:04 UTC
First forum post ever, I just wanted to add that I too trained ME to V because it was required, and it was a long train. The replacement skill seems almost certain to bar nearly no one from effectively competing with me. Perhaps it will be substituted as a prereq where ME V was before? That would give individuals who trained this the leg up they thought they were investing in.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#78 - 2014-07-16 14:16:59 UTC
H3llHound wrote:
Having Mat. Eff. at 5 never gave you a benefit but rather eliminated a penalty. Every serious producer has it at 5 already otherwise he couldnt compete. I also dont get why suddenly everyone is suprised about the change...it was outlined in the indy-devblog pack, 2 months ago, that the skill would be changed to something less powerful (devblogs said reduction in installation costs).

In its current iteration Mat. Eff. is a too powerful skill as was Drone interfacing.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with it being removed. but rather that our SP is being converted into a skill that isn't useful to an apparently-large number of people.

I keep using myself as an example, but it's only because I know what my play-time is like: I manufacture things I can put to use, but only do so from reprocessed materials. I usually do my runs at the end of the week, and set them up just before leaving for the night. I will have four or five manufacturing lines that run for four to six hours, and then sit idle until the next week.

Previously, a reduction in installation costs would have been fine. Something like that would still be a benefit to small-time manufacturers. This change, though, reducing manufacturing time by 5%, will reduce my longest manufacturing lines (about six hours) by 18 minutes.

I'm usually asleep when my lines stop, and even if I were awake, I wouldn't be putting anything else on them until the next week, once I had more materials from reprocessing junk loot.

Material Efficiency V was useful to me because it was a direct reduction in the cost of what I do, regardless as to whether it was a "benefit" or the "elimination of a penalty." Advanced Industry is useless to me because I don't keep my lines going 24/7. The skill is 768,000 SP. That's not an insignificant investment, especially considering it saves 72 minutes per day (per line) at level V. If you have any more down-time on a line than that, you've wasted the skill's benefit for that line on that day.

If the skill reduced the installation cost, I would be perfectly happy with it. A time reduction? I would have to turn my for-personal-use side-job in EvE into a full-time primary job to make use of it. I don't want to do that, and wouldn't have trained the skill if it had been like this in the beginning.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Myxx
The Scope
#79 - 2014-07-16 14:17:48 UTC
I have material efficiency to 5, on two characters. The skill you are proposing to replace it with does not do anything that I need it to do. Like others have said before me, I would caution you *not* to make this change, CCP.
H3llHound
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-07-16 14:33:17 UTC
You, as a small-time producer building for personal use I would say MatEff 5 isnt of good use as you dont produce profit orientated. Lvl 3 or 4 wouldve been enough. A huge timesink for little benefit.

CCP wants the skill not to be a entry-level hurdle but a high-end bonus.