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Is the reduction in job cost completely off the table now? Because that's the kind of thing you'd expect there to be a skill for honestly.

But between those two choices I'd pick the additional skills. More ways to specialize in this game is always good IMO (without creating a skill tree the size of Texas).

Are we back to this? Part time producers don't get much from this skill. A reduction in job cost or an additional slot per level might be good but if the time reduction is pushed, I'd hope you give us the ability to move our SP elsewhere.

If you count a grand total of 10 production jobs and a month of having it, sure. Remember, there are a lot of new players to the game too. 750K experience is a lot to me ATM. In 3 years, maybe not too much.

--TL;DR at bottom--


Okay, so.... I'm not going to lie- reading this thread has been as painful as removing teeth.

Lets have a small summation here:

CCP made a mistake. Oops. Mistakes happen. But this was a pretty big mistake and should never happen again.

Lots of hot air from all sides. People who are angry that something that they spent tons of time training has become invalid- this is by far not the first time it has happened (and frankly it SHOULDN'T EVER HAPPEN, but sometimes choices are made that the consequences arent clear until its too late- i.e. designing the skills this way), and it probably won't be the last time. At the same time we have a ton of people snapping at them saying "grow up and get over it". None of this is helping the problem at hand. We ALL want eve to be a good experience for everyone- so strive for that shall we?

Greyscale has gone from being kinda.... not so here on the issue to being actively in this thread. Hopefully the latter becomes the norm because I went from unimpressed to impressed as he started really actively talking to players. It was a bit late, truthfully- this kind of interaction should be the NORM with a game this big- but I really appreciate the effort he has begun to put into this thread. So thank you.


NOW, on to the meat and bones- as someone who joined this game several years ago on the premise of industry (shocker, aint it?), I too think that the 1% time reduction is a bit underwhelming (read: frankly ridiculous) . While I don't understand the issue with "mandatory skills" as there are plenty of skills that do a lot for players in many departments and are mandatory to use well (thankfully most of them that are left are 1x skills which is a lot more acceptable), I do understand that the ME skill was a bit.... powerful. That being said, here's what I personally think would be best:

1. Keep it as a ME based skill, lower the percentage per level to around 1%. sure, "waste" as a mechanic is being removed, but iirc you are bumping up build materials to compensate- meaning that you aren't ACTUALLY removing waste. you are just re-branding it as the norm. So, a small materials bonus wouldnt be that ridiculous because it wouldnt be changing too much from what the system currently is, in my honest opinion. I know this mechanic is changed up with teams- but that's what happens when you randomly introduce new mechanics. But a ME based skill FEELS the best, even if the amount is a bit more marginal. EVERYONE benefits from it in a completely balanced way- whether they only manufacture a few things here or there, or manufacture EVERY DAY- a materials decrease is the most tangible benefit, so why remove it. just tone it down.


2. If you are REALLY adamantly against it- then the next best idea is the aforementioned idea of changing industry and this new "advanced industry" to affect install costs of ALL jobs, and then later on adding skills (or modifying the existing ones) to specialize in each field. While this would still be a small kick in the shins for all of us industrial players who trained ME5 (which is basically EVERY serious industrialist)- this is a buff to the industry skill and if you make the advanced version at least 3-5%, then it would almost compensate for the change- especially if you add in some new ways to further drive down costs (especially if theyre just buffing some of the old skills that are only borderline useful).




Remember that industry is a REALLY delicate and important part of eve- and as much as there are some people who wouldnt like to admit it, industry is just as as important as PvP if not more. Those ships and ammo and drones and modules etc dont just build themselves. So be careful on this CCP. We all want to give you our trust- but lately we've been blindsided a lot and we're all a bit confused and hurting from the wave of changes that many of us still aren't truly prepared for (the details of which have been changing almost every week). So lets just all work together on getting this done ASAP =) I want to continue to have faith in the longevity of this game, and the work of the devs- lets make that happen! =)


--TL;DR--

summary of thread,
personal opinion agreeing with general consensus of 1% being underwhelming.
two proposed ideas: keep ME just nerf percentages, or change industry and advanced industry to buff costs for all jobs- not just manufacturing. then add specialization capabilities to further reduce costs (as the new cost system kinda really sucks in all honesty.)

I was training a manufacturing alt. Then the dev blogs got released.

I sure wish I didn't waste that plex on something I could've done almost just as good with a fresh toon.

Thanks for the bait and switch I guess.

This kind of thing is what I was thinking when I suggested somewhere between 5% and 10% per level job cost reduction. I didn't have the actual savings laid out, so it's nice that somebody does. It'd help people in nullsec most, but the blocs are already rich as hell so that part doesn't really matter much to me. What this kind of thinking *does* do is encourage people to feel more free to manufacture closer to hubs and would create some potential for a little emergent gameplay where those who choose not to learn it could actually benefit MORE than those who do learn the skill by going into nowhere to make their products because they're willing to travel significantly longer distances, maybe even collecting their entire infrastructure and moving it from time to time so they can save a couple %.

I would say 5% per level would be nice. But I wouldn't exclude additional skills having this one as prerequisite.

One idea for the new skills would time reductions that only affect specific products (something like gun assembly expertise or (Jump) freighter construction management). These would allow for serious producers to specialize on specific market segments through mass production.

(I would like to see skills that would increase the number of lines per character further but I do understand why that wouldn't be desirable)

On the topic of jump freighters, I noticed that with the changes the JF BPCs invented using accelerant decryptors went from 15 days build time to 25 days. Before Crius there was the option of sacrificing some margin (read 30% to 60% depending on market fluctuations) per ship to be able to almost double the monthly production and reduce the risk of said market fluctuations.
Is this something that is going to be addressed in the invention changes? If not, are you planning on addressing to this situations? ( I know this is a bit off topic but it would be interesting to have some light shed over this).

I disagree with what you suggest here. The main reason is it rewards players who make bad choices, and has minimal effect on those players who make the right choice.

Industry is all about making good choices now, and so to implement a skill which circumvents the folly of someone building in the wrong location seems contrary to the aims of these changes, and will not make for the good gameplay which crius is trying to implement into industry.

I feel that the most flexible option is to introduce new high rank skills that require the Advanced Industry skill to 5. They don't have to do a lot but they would also fix the annoyance that you can have an almost perfect manufacturing toon in like a month or two for all but T2 ships. This is your big chance to introduce all those high SP fringe skills that people have thought of through the ages. I would say that the total time-reduction for manufacturing (or cost reduction or whatever) could total to 25% (as 5% per level would) but I think it should require exponentially more skillpoints, use the refining skilltree as a point of reference.

Also make sure the skill in itself isn't worthless so make it 2% for all or something like that. Also make capital construction require it to 5.

tl;dr option 2