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An idea.Lets say a low-sec capital builders alliance spends 5b to hire the best team for their system and their capital ship building needs.Not only they give out information on what they are producing and where but whats to stop mercs spending 50m to wardec them and take down their pos or demand a suitable payment to leave them alone.

Imo ccp I think teams may need to go as well if you don't want massive amount of carebear tears.

Because the existence of the Thukker Array itself won't be a give-away...
Or the capital assembly array...

When I started playing EVE in the summer of 2011, I would never have predicted that the majority of my time would be spent in industry. And yet it has, and I find myself highly skeptical of the changes planned for Crius. Near the top of the list of things that make no sense to me is this introduction of teams.

I play the way I play because I enjoy it. I've been in corps and I've played mostly solo. I used to have four active accounts and am down to three. If the mainstay of my EVE time, industry, becomes too tedious, well, there goes not only those characters but the PVE and PVP ones as well.

I like the ecosystem that I've built in the "sandbox" that EVE is supposed to be. Why you are introducing these changes is beyond me. Time will tell.

This comment comes too late for me.

*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

As CCP does not want to hear our views but impose these changes, you leave us no choice but to cancel our subscriptions.

Sure, it's not constructive.

As other players says "It's not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time."

I'm not angry but sad, EvE industry was very addictive.

Consider WHY highsec industry is uninterested in social interaction and if the patch changes anything in that regards. Extrapolating from my experiences, the reasons would be:

1.) Being in an industrial highsec corp is painting a bulls eye on your back. Unless you take significant care not to be noticed, you have to expect many one-sided wardecs coming your way. Ways of dealing with this problem (out of corp haulers, remote managing of installation) exist, but are very deterring especially for new players, making it difficult for new industrial corps to grow.

2.) Sharing industry-related resources (like a POS) requires either massive trust or loads of micromanaging in horrible menus. Making mistakes is very likely to expose corp resources to theft or destruction. This kind of gameplay is encouraged by CCP and you guys wonder why industrialists prefer not to dive in this mess but prefer to stick to themselves?

3.) People willing to be cog 745 of 986 in a massive corp have their place made for them in null-sec; in contrast, small null-sec corps are unable to provide the stability required by industrialists. If I'd be willing to join some a corp with the number of members required to influence developments (like the deployment of teams) on a large scale, I'd make a significantly larger profit by joining renter-corp 3325 in the blue donut... This problem will only become more compounded once the nullsec landlords decide to increase the number of renters by wrecking the highsec industry...

It seems to me the main folks at CCP had given up playing the game years ago.

From what I have seen in just my 15 months of playing, CCP in now more interested in flexing the power they have over the players.

At first, I thought CCP was a business. That was until I found how difficult being a new player or a solo player in EvE online is (and it's getting worse). Convincing new players to go to other games is never a good business decision.

They've been encouraging established players to prey on new players and especially miners in high sec for several months.

Now, they're making even manufactoring good only for players established in null.

WHAT THE HECK IS CCP DOING? COMMITTING FINANCIAL SUICIDE?

So how to resolve the contradictions. If Eve industry is PVP (refer back to NASH) then why force producers in the same chain to cooperate? Industry is not simple now, but the complexity is not *obvious*, meaning the game does not give feedback like say WOW does before you attempt to undertake some discouraged activity. The complexity that exists is discovered. The reward is in the discovery - i.e., use of consumables matched to the tier of production you're doing and so forth. So, complexity is not new. The UI eye candy is. Simpler fixes would have been to see who his hogging up a station slot so you can war dec them. Why not give me advantages for perfecting a manufacturing chain, thus making me competitive against (not with) my competitors? Huge disconnect as the changes have been evangelized so far.

Are the unnecessarily tedious elements gone? TBD. It's ironic you speculate that spreadsheets won't find the answer because so much of these changes involve an attempt to apply a statistical model to a problem that happened on a server we don't utilize (China). So there are references to visionary futures but fixing problems with the distribution of the Chinese player base thru their universe by pounding the Chinese peg through the non-Chinese hole is ... irrational.

There were incentives to work together before but the disincentives have since dwarfed the incentives. Coercing a paid subscriber base vs incenting them is also a bit irrational. A reasonable vision for industry should be based on war where ships get blown up quickly and need to be replaced. We have 0.0 interests incented not to wage war, and a high sec production base that is unstable. Kill sov, attach proportionate consequences for high sec griefing, do away with or really substantially change alliance models and industry will become cooperative along more organic lines.

See, this is why we can never have nice things! CCP codes them away! (sorry been wanting to bust that out, definitely not usually true).

For the guys who haven’t been here that long, let’s take a history lesson....

Prior to 2011, CCP were getting more and more cocky with their attitude towards the players. They were disregarding pretty much everything we said and railroading lots of badly thought out and under-developed ideas onto the Live server.

June 2011: Incarna

The single worst thing ever to be brought onto TQ. While it was a novel idea, the implementation was a total disaster. Despite countless comments on the Test server feedback forum, it was brought into Live. Players’ graphics cards screamed and melted while just sitting in the station. The interface was horrible and the expansion sucked bigitme. Numerous people cancelled their accounts, hundreds camped Jita and shot the monument.

CCP woke up and allowed players to turn it off and revert back to the hanger view. In an attempt to appease the players, Hilmar Pétursson (CEO of CCP) wrote a letter of apology, some of the highlights being:

“A Humbler, Stronger CCP”
“We’ve taken a hard look at everything, including my leadership. What I can say for now is that we’ve taken action to ensure these mistakes are never repeated”
“The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience”

It was a very noble act which unfortunately turned out to be a complete lie.

CCP have not changed their attitude, and are certainly not any humbler.
CCP have not learned any lessons and are still making the same mistakes.
CCP absolutely do not believe that the game belongs to the players, but to Devs that have an unbounded sense of arrogance and think they know better than everyone else. They are so far out of touch with reality and it’s clear that half of them never actually play the game in any meaningful way.

Just a few examples:
Unified Inventory
Tooltips
This industrial expansion


So, do not expect a meaningful response to any concerns here, this will be brought in regardless.

- Producers in the same chain have the *option* to cooperate (like a cartel). They are not forced. They can also leech on a cartel in highsec because teams can't be restricted (this is a problem for cooperation too).

- The complexity you are referring to is T2 production and I agree that it is already fairly complex now. Still I think that the changes will make it more interesting.

- I think that spreadsheets won't be able to calculate the best strategy because it would need to make too many predictions like: How much is it going to cost to win the auction for team X? If I win team X, how is activity going to change in system Y? How will that impact the market price?

- I agree that SOV also needs fixing



Yes complexity could have come in less volatile forms. The new system is almost impossible to predict. I actually look forward to a blowup because that's exciting and will make some industrialists rich and burn others.

The benefits of a more volatile system is that it takes much longer to reach an equilibrium and it can be disrupted more easily. That makes for a more active gameplay for industrialists and less passive ISK making. At the moment you can set up your system once and keep producing the same thing for months. With the new system you'll need to adjust more often.

oh, the joys of managing a corp with 150 dudes, all of which are eager to put their personal BPO collection in a corp hangar where it's completely out of their control and in the hands of people who they have to trust

oh, and btw, forums, jabber and teamspeak/mumble are the tools us evil nullsec overlords use to organize things like B-R. .