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Dev blog: Teams and Revamp of Industry in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#121 - 2014-07-10 12:35:17 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Dracnys wrote:

The benefits of a more volatile system is that it takes much longer to reach an equilibrium and it can be disrupted more easily. That makes for a more active gameplay for industrialists and less passive ISK making. At the moment you can set up your system once and keep producing the same thing for months. With the new system you'll need to adjust more often.


Highsec is an unorganzied mess. CCP's vision of organized highsec gameplay is "mailing lists and out of game tools". Meanwhile null blocs are counting, inventarizing and labeling their matches in a neat and orderly fashion. Guess who'll be lighting up the volatile system & who will burn?

Well, that wasn't a productive post on my part. So, to be productive, I'd be a lot less ancious if there were some "worst case" calculations regarding the differences that could be caused by stacking the new effects instead of the cute little "everything is average nowadays abadon"...


Highsec and nullsec play the same game with the same tools. How is it then that nullsec is, in your mind, a vastly organized machine waiting to stomp out all other producers and highsec is a bumbling mess that can't find it's backside with two hands? Is it because the players in those nullsec have made decisions that benefit themselves that involve being cooperative? There is no secret sauce here. If only there was a way for highsec players to act like nullsec players....

El Zylcho wrote:
So how to resolve the contradictions. If Eve industry is PVP (refer back to NASH) then why force producers in the same chain to cooperate?


PvP != solo PvP. Everyone complains about "the blob". What is a blob other than a group of players acting in concert? Why is it then that industry and market PvP (in the mind of the high-sec player) is only a solo game? I guarantee you (see above) that those "evil" nullsec cartels don't view the game that way and act accordingly. Once again, nothing is preventing players in any space from acting that way.

El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2014-07-10 12:56:19 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

El Zylcho wrote:
So how to resolve the contradictions. If Eve industry is PVP (refer back to NASH) then why force producers in the same chain to cooperate?


PvP != solo PvP. Everyone complains about "the blob". What is a blob other than a group of players acting in concert? Why is it then that industry and market PvP (in the mind of the high-sec player) is only a solo game? I guarantee you (see above) that those "evil" nullsec cartels don't view the game that way and act accordingly. Once again, nothing is preventing players in any space from acting that way.



The notion of solo PVP may be more fantasy than game reality now but the industrialist is the one style of solo play that does support PVP conflict if you factor in market dynamics in Jita. The drawback is the lack of feedback. I can often force another seller to sell into buy orders, but I don't always know who I've just beat in the market place. I know I'm winning when I'm forcing the other seller into my agenda, but the gains are implied and not always evident.

Industry as is today *is* the better example of solo pvp. A dedicated market griefer can take all the output of given market segment and challenge its profitability with a chokehold akin to holding the games most valuable moons. Put another way, Jita is the last place for an immortal to play like an immortal ;-)

By way of contrast, one sees fewer and fewer solo roamers these days PVPing ad hoc in space. Granted it's much more interesting to watch solo pvp videos on youtube of people wandering around looking for a random fight than it is to watch a jita market screen refresh, but the economic damage the individual can do in Jita w/o ever firing a shot has significant potential. This behavior is often associated with industrial output. No need to coerce others to behave to someone else's understanding of what PVP *is*.

And the reference to 0.0 dynamics as a litmus test is a bit of a fallacy because 0.0 benefits from all kinds of CCP welfare like favorable SOV models and so forth. It's not the wild wild west out yonder that makes for the passive accumulation of wealth, it's game logic :-) And, go out on a sov grind and see how fun a "blob" is.

That aside, going back to how competitors make decisions in games such as these, a model that favors collaboration between competitors detracts from the dynamic that make PVP style games so fun to play. Why reward an anti-competitive game style, especially if a stated goal is to force "interaction"?
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#123 - 2014-07-10 13:12:39 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

Highsec and nullsec play the same game with the same tools. How is it then that nullsec is, in your mind, a vastly organized machine waiting to stomp out all other producers and highsec is a bumbling mess that can't find it's backside with two hands? Is it because the players in those nullsec have made decisions that benefit themselves that involve being cooperative? There is no secret sauce here. If only there was a way for highsec players to act like nullsec players....


It's mainly because nullsec players (those relevant to the discussion) don't mind being part of coalitions with > 1000 members. Personally, I dislike being part of any organization so large that I can't remember the reallife names of everyone in teamspeak. That attitude will get me nowhere in the entities that play SOV games; fine, EvE has enough other things I can do. Right now, highsec industry is one of them. After this patch? I'm not sure that this will still be the case.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#124 - 2014-07-10 14:26:34 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Highsec and nullsec play the same game with the same tools. How is it then that nullsec is, in your mind, a vastly organized machine waiting to stomp out all other producers and highsec is a bumbling mess that can't find it's backside with two hands? Is it because the players in those nullsec have made decisions that benefit themselves that involve being cooperative? There is no secret sauce here. If only there was a way for highsec players to act like nullsec players....


It's mainly because nullsec players (those relevant to the discussion) don't mind being part of coalitions with > 1000 members. Personally, I dislike being part of any organization so large that I can't remember the reallife names of everyone in teamspeak. That attitude will get me nowhere in the entities that play SOV games; fine, EvE has enough other things I can do. Right now, highsec industry is one of them. After this patch? I'm not sure that this will still be the case.


But what that boils down to is that you are choosing to be solo, to not organize, to not take advantage of group resources, and to do it all on your own. Should EVE be an environment where your choice has no consequence, where there is no difference in potential capability between someone who chooses to be solo vs. someone who chooses to be part of a large organization? Is it not a natural conclusion that the organized group would outperform the individual? In the current state of industry, it is far more, as you said, equal between solo and group because there is very little a group can do to influence cost short of operating at a scale the solo producer may not be able to. With the Crius industry changes, there is a distinct piece of the puzzle where organized groups can influence part of the cost model. Interestingly, solo players can take full advantage of this by exercising their increased mobility and working in the same spaces the large groups are (in reference to teams here). I find it a very interesting dynamic because it, quite simply, boils back down to choice. You can choose to take advantage of the resources available to you (materials, research, location, and even available teams) or you can choose not to but ultimately your level of success is determined more by your choices and less by a simple material calculation as it is today.

People may not like the infusion of choice but it is hard to deny that it is more dynamic and interesting gameply over the bacon button style industry that exists today.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#125 - 2014-07-10 14:39:00 UTC
I feel compelled to correct some misconceptions regarding nulsec.

Every person in a coalition is part of an alliance. Every person in that alliance is part of a corp. The size and composition of players within your corp is entirely up to your corp's leadership team, and to a certain extent its members.

Being part of an alliance or coalition does not require and usually is not about everyone being close personal friends irl, though this certainly does happen. Its more about having a common identity and purpose within the game environment. Being friends irl can help that small core group to identify with each other. But if you refuse to be a part of something in eve because you don't know everyone in that entity's rl identity, you are severely restricting your gaming experience.

I have done industry in hisec, losec, nulsec, and w-space. None of these changes are going to break anything. Don't need those labs anymore? Melt them down (preferably before Crius goes live) and build something with the PI. Or sell it.

Don't want to sell the labs or reprocessed P4s because PI cheap right now? No problem. So buy up those cheap P4s and make something profitable. There are always opportunities if you just look for them.

Industry in Eve as well as irl is not static. Things change. When things change, move away from unprofitable products and move into profitable ones. Your flexibility is nearly unlimited within any major production group. All you need is blueprints and materials.

If you don't want to work with the teams, don't. They are not mandatory. You can choose to use the "no effect/cost" default team and build as you always have. You will have no bonuses and may not be as profitable or competitive as someone that is.

Once someone with deep pockets decides to set up in a system, they should have regularly good teams in system. You can co locate and sponge off of them. The benefit is you get the team for nothing. But you have to spend time/isk moving. Or not. Again. Your choice. It balances out.

Team locations will be publicly known. There will be a lot of people moving things around early in Crius once the teams start getting auctioned out. The high-value teams (those with overlapping specialties) will get bought by the systems with the deepest pockets. But because they are the best, they will end up costing more, thus biting into profits more. Lesser teams will cost less. It all balances out.

Nulsec is not going to destroy hisec manufacturing with their "advantages." They would have to import massive amounts of minerals from hisec to nulsec (jf fuel usage is going up 50% in case you forgot) make the stuff, then ship it back to hisec. The import/export costs alone could easily offset any ME/team/tax advantages.

If anyone thinks this is untrue, I challenge you to bust out the spreadsheets and do an actual cost analysis on something. Feel free to substitute mineral prices for compressed ore prices, since compressed ores have not been readily available in hisec.

If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Tiberius Zol
Moira.
Villore Accords
#126 - 2014-07-10 14:52:12 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Wall of text.


One of the best statements, i read in this thread.
Thx man. Full Ack.

Mr. Tibbers on twitter: @Mr_Tibbers

Mr. Tibbers Blog: www.eve-versum.de

El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-07-10 14:53:56 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

People may not like the infusion of choice but it is hard to deny that it is more dynamic and interesting gameply over the bacon button style industry that exists today.


"Infusion of choice" is debatable. This is more akin to coercion These changes also the take away gains achieved at a considerable expense. Grinding stats to drop a POS required a huge investment of time which was time spent NOT doing other things. I suspect its at least 100's of hours of missioning? (not sure tbh) Simply taking that away is not an infusion of choice. Additionally, there is no way to escape the penalties being imposed for refusal to cooperate with competitors. One can cooperate today too without the "frying pan or fire" kind of choice that is coming.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#128 - 2014-07-10 15:30:09 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I feel compelled to correct some misconceptions regarding nulsec.




Nulsec is not going to destroy hisec manufacturing with their "advantages." They would have to import massive amounts of minerals from hisec to nulsec (jf fuel usage is going up 50% in case you forgot) make the stuff, then ship it back to hisec. The import/export costs alone could easily offset any ME/team/tax advantages.


If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.


Your statement is ridiculous.
Of course null sec is not going to be making low margin, large size items in null sec and shipping them back. Oh and , you do already import massive quantities of minerals now for supercap manufacturing, but that is beside the point.

What null sec WILL do is focus on every high margin, low size item, like DC II's, Hob II's, Nano II's, etc, where, btw, all the raw materials are already in null sec. A typical null sec cartel industrialist will be buying T2 raw materials local, inventing and manufacturing with insurmountable cost advantages, then moving whatever product he wants to sell in high sec (certainly not as much as before as high sec dies), and his return trip will hold compressed ore, which he then refines for a 20% bonus over high sec, which in turn is sold to the supercap makers in his alliance.

High sec will be left with the dregs, like making T1 ship hulls, which have razor thin margins.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#129 - 2014-07-10 15:37:46 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

But what that boils down to is that you are choosing to be solo, to not organize, to not take advantage of group resources, and to do it all on your own. Should EVE be an environment where your choice has no consequence, where there is no difference in potential capability between someone who chooses to be solo vs. someone who chooses to be part of a large organization? Is it not a natural conclusion that the organized group would outperform the individual? In the current state of industry, it is far more, as you said, equal between solo and group because there is very little a group can do to influence cost short of operating at a scale the solo producer may not be able to. With the Crius industry changes, there is a distinct piece of the puzzle where organized groups can influence part of the cost model. Interestingly, solo players can take full advantage of this by exercising their increased mobility and working in the same spaces the large groups are (in reference to teams here). I find it a very interesting dynamic because it, quite simply, boils back down to choice. You can choose to take advantage of the resources available to you (materials, research, location, and even available teams) or you can choose not to but ultimately your level of success is determined more by your choices and less by a simple material calculation as it is today.

People may not like the infusion of choice but it is hard to deny that it is more dynamic and interesting gameply over the bacon button style industry that exists today.


The problem is how the organized group outperforms the indiviudal. Increase in speed would have been fine and similar to other areas of the game (e.g. nullsec exploration/anoms/ratting all bring more isk/hour). Increase in cost efficiency risks making highsec industry not less rewarding than nullsec industry but not rewarding at all, as in negative isk/hr. At this point it's no longer a choice to do industry solo, it becomes forced group play. It's not certain that this will happen, but what has been presented so far does not make me confident that the risk does not exist. A large number of things change at once, and I doubt we can realistically estimate the cumulative effectsize of all of them taken together.

GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#130 - 2014-07-10 17:36:55 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I feel compelled to correct some misconceptions regarding nulsec.

Every person in a coalition is part of an alliance. Every person in that alliance is part of a corp. The size and composition of players within your corp is entirely up to your corp's leadership team, and to a certain extent its members.

Being part of an alliance or coalition does not require and usually is not about everyone being close personal friends irl, though this certainly does happen. Its more about having a common identity and purpose within the game environment. Being friends irl can help that small core group to identify with each other. But if you refuse to be a part of something in eve because you don't know everyone in that entity's rl identity, you are severely restricting your gaming experience.

I have done industry in hisec, losec, nulsec, and w-space. None of these changes are going to break anything. Don't need those labs anymore? Melt them down (preferably before Crius goes live) and build something with the PI. Or sell it.

Don't want to sell the labs or reprocessed P4s because PI cheap right now? No problem. So buy up those cheap P4s and make something profitable. There are always opportunities if you just look for them.

Industry in Eve as well as irl is not static. Things change. When things change, move away from unprofitable products and move into profitable ones. Your flexibility is nearly unlimited within any major production group. All you need is blueprints and materials.

If you don't want to work with the teams, don't. They are not mandatory. You can choose to use the "no effect/cost" default team and build as you always have. You will have no bonuses and may not be as profitable or competitive as someone that is.

Once someone with deep pockets decides to set up in a system, they should have regularly good teams in system. You can co locate and sponge off of them. The benefit is you get the team for nothing. But you have to spend time/isk moving. Or not. Again. Your choice. It balances out.

Team locations will be publicly known. There will be a lot of people moving things around early in Crius once the teams start getting auctioned out. The high-value teams (those with overlapping specialties) will get bought by the systems with the deepest pockets. But because they are the best, they will end up costing more, thus biting into profits more. Lesser teams will cost less. It all balances out.

Nulsec is not going to destroy hisec manufacturing with their "advantages." They would have to import massive amounts of minerals from hisec to nulsec (jf fuel usage is going up 50% in case you forgot) make the stuff, then ship it back to hisec. The import/export costs alone could easily offset any ME/team/tax advantages.

If anyone thinks this is untrue, I challenge you to bust out the spreadsheets and do an actual cost analysis on something. Feel free to substitute mineral prices for compressed ore prices, since compressed ores have not been readily available in hisec.

If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.


Please tell us all how much a team will cost so we can run this analysis.
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#131 - 2014-07-10 20:15:22 UTC
Is it an oversight on the blog that there is no listed Large class > Industrial Command Ship specialty team?
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2014-07-10 20:18:07 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
I feel compelled to correct some misconceptions regarding nulsec.

Every person in a coalition is part of an alliance. Every person in that alliance is part of a corp. The size and composition of players within your corp is entirely up to your corp's leadership team, and to a certain extent its members.

Being part of an alliance or coalition does not require and usually is not about everyone being close personal friends irl, though this certainly does happen. Its more about having a common identity and purpose within the game environment. Being friends irl can help that small core group to identify with each other. But if you refuse to be a part of something in eve because you don't know everyone in that entity's rl identity, you are severely restricting your gaming experience.

I have done industry in hisec, losec, nulsec, and w-space. None of these changes are going to break anything. Don't need those labs anymore? Melt them down (preferably before Crius goes live) and build something with the PI. Or sell it.

Don't want to sell the labs or reprocessed P4s because PI cheap right now? No problem. So buy up those cheap P4s and make something profitable. There are always opportunities if you just look for them.

Industry in Eve as well as irl is not static. Things change. When things change, move away from unprofitable products and move into profitable ones. Your flexibility is nearly unlimited within any major production group. All you need is blueprints and materials.

If you don't want to work with the teams, don't. They are not mandatory. You can choose to use the "no effect/cost" default team and build as you always have. You will have no bonuses and may not be as profitable or competitive as someone that is.

Once someone with deep pockets decides to set up in a system, they should have regularly good teams in system. You can co locate and sponge off of them. The benefit is you get the team for nothing. But you have to spend time/isk moving. Or not. Again. Your choice. It balances out.

Team locations will be publicly known. There will be a lot of people moving things around early in Crius once the teams start getting auctioned out. The high-value teams (those with overlapping specialties) will get bought by the systems with the deepest pockets. But because they are the best, they will end up costing more, thus biting into profits more. Lesser teams will cost less. It all balances out.

Nulsec is not going to destroy hisec manufacturing with their "advantages." They would have to import massive amounts of minerals from hisec to nulsec (jf fuel usage is going up 50% in case you forgot) make the stuff, then ship it back to hisec. The import/export costs alone could easily offset any ME/team/tax advantages.

If anyone thinks this is untrue, I challenge you to bust out the spreadsheets and do an actual cost analysis on something. Feel free to substitute mineral prices for compressed ore prices, since compressed ores have not been readily available in hisec.

If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.


Please tell us all how much a team will cost so we can run this analysis.

The test server is there for you.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2014-07-11 00:32:21 UTC
Quote:
A typical null sec cartel industrialist will be buying T2 raw materials local,



yeah, right.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#134 - 2014-07-11 00:57:04 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
A typical null sec cartel industrialist will be buying T2 raw materials local,



yeah, right.


Let me get this straight...you actually believe that cartels will take all their moon goo, and PI products, convert them into T2 intermediate products, ship ALL of them to Jita, only to turn around and head to Jita to buy these products off the market.

No one is that gullible to believe that bullshit.
Klyith
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2014-07-11 01:15:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Let me get this straight...you actually believe that cartels will take all their moon goo, and PI products, convert them into T2 intermediate products, ship ALL of them to Jita, only to turn around and head to Jita to buy these products off the market.

No one is that gullible to believe that bullshit.

Are you aware that for at least r32s nullsec is forced to export / reimport, since those moons are regional and even at your most tinfoil you must be aware that no single power holds a complete range?

Besides, even right now the bulk of moon minerals are shipped raw to jita, re-exported for refining, shipped back to jita, then used. Some CFC groups have local sale & refining, can't say anything about other groups. But even in the CFC the price is pegged to Jita averages. Local use only saves on shipping. So if traders in jita put up higher buy orders, nullsec will sell to jita when local consumers are priced out.


Oh wait I forgot we won't sell anything to empire because we're in a giant conspiracy and CCP is our willing servant.
El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2014-07-11 01:20:54 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:


But while we are on the subject of numbers, please do prance on over there and figure out for yourself how a hound costs +17% to produce from the exact same blueprint I have today. I am sure that will go over real well once the people crying about PLEX prices figure it out.


Has anyone done a T2 analysis on how the inflation / usury will work on a full T2 production chain? I'm guessing if you make your own T2 parts, those will also see a (in the case above) a 17% inflation. So, eventually, if the market forces pass on the cost, your install fee for the final ship in the T2 chain will be the parts (1.17) x (1.17)? That's maybe what a 36% inflation based on taxes / fees alone? And, of course, that inflated cost will be subject to a tax too?

It seems like the smart move is to buy up stuff subject to this future inflation now, stockpile, then sell off post 7/22?

Here's a question: What would be a sign these changes end up having a negative impact on the game of Eve? Cancelled subscriptions aside, have that powers that be discussed what a fail looks like? What if production hours go down? Or the rate at which sales takes place decrease? Any magic numbers to follow?
Lee Hyori
New Horizons
#137 - 2014-07-11 03:14:15 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

If your response to Crius is to rage-quit, then you are giving the "nulsec cartels" the biggest advantage they could possibly hope for; less competition.


Not a rage-quit for me.

If you want to make comments, do it on the Post I've created "Revamp of Industry" in section EVE Communication Center ยป EVE General Discussion.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2014-07-11 03:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
A typical null sec cartel industrialist will be buying T2 raw materials local,



yeah, right.


Let me get this straight...you actually believe that cartels will take all their moon goo, and PI products, convert them into T2 intermediate products, ship ALL of them to Jita, only to turn around and head to Jita to buy these products off the market.

No one is that gullible to believe that bullshit.


let me get this straight...you actually believe that nullsec has all the stuff you need to make all the stuff in all the locations ?

hint: it does not.


the changes coming with crius will mostly benefit mineral heavy industrys. such as cap and scap building and battleship manufacturing.

the benefit for T2 module and ship manufacturing is minimal and probably not worth the effort in many cases.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#139 - 2014-07-11 06:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Barzai Mekhar
Gilbaron wrote:

the benefit for T2 module and ship manufacturing is minimal and probably not worth the effort in many cases.


According to some very napkinny math (not even 8am here):

Small to medium T2 ships come with a profitmargin of 10-50% (e..g sallvalue = 1.10-1.5 * material costs) right now.

Now factor in
-9% mat cost bonus from an fully upgraded Amaar Outpost
-I'd guesstimate 5% of mat. cost advantage due to differences in the job costs section (once all the math is crunched; I'm aware that job cost is not based on mat cost but on sellvalue, however sellvalue = matcost * profit factor, so it works as a conservative estimate)

Assuming nullsec as cost baseline, highsec would have a 16% increased production cost. As both costs and profit in this example are normalized to material cost value, we can directly subtract one from the other and the profit margin becomes quite slim for a large number of ships, though not yet non-existant for all.

This is under the assumption of identical material costs; however the same cost calculation applies to T2 components which are the largest fraction of the material costs. Worst case, the component cost difference between nullsec and highsec is directly proportional to the respective production cost difference (as calculated before) & suddenly the cost increase is approximately squared and we're looking at 35% additional costs (1.16^2 =~ 1.35) in highsec, which pushes most small to medium ships to the point where they're no longer profitable.

Note that I haven't even mentioned teams; the combination of the changes to job costs, additional material cost modifiers and unlimited production slots in itself can already create cost discrepancies of > 25%, yet CCP can't just stick to those changes for now and see how they pan out, they have to add more new systems that further complicate the issue and make it more unpredictable. Because mailing lists I assume (yeah sorry, that response really rubbed me the wrong way).
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2014-07-11 06:31:24 UTC
where did you get the 9% for the upgraded amarr outpost from ?

i thought it was 5%

3 x 1% from the plant or factory upgrade

2 x 1% from the other one