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Dev blog: Teams and Revamp of Industry in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Meytal
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-07-09 13:31:05 UTC
DoToo Foo wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Update on multiple-structure bonuses for starbases.
...

The only substantial downside to this is that it makes it much easier to weaponize an industry tower, so we are considering upping lab/array fitting costs substantially in a later release. We likely will not do this in Crius itself as people will need time to reconfigure their setups.
...
-Greyscale


This concerns me somewhat. We currently run multiple lab slots because of pilot demand, but we also run weaponised POS with industry on the side. Crazy wormhole industrialists I know, but we do exist.

I fully expect that a highsec POS would be able to do more with a smaller POS due to relying on Concord for initial defense (at least until the wardecs happen.

I also would understand a mild increase in cpu/power grid for modules. I will no longer be running as many labs as I do now, so doubling (or even a little more) the requirements does make sense.

Please be aware that the primary use of LSAA's for many wormhole corps is secure storage and not ship building.
Doubling the fitting requirements LSAA's (without creating a very large corp hanger array as an option) may cause some forum angst.

Continuing this line of thinking, what incentives exist for W-space residents over hisec residents?

We will both have to pay installation costs. You could respond that W-space industry demand is lower than hisec so costs will be lower, but one would only need move to a remote backward hisec location to possibly find even better costs than in W-space. Sheep mentality will ensure that these places in hisec areas will exist.

W-space basically requires a large POS with numerous and redundant defenses. It's Nullsec + isolation: all the dangers of attacking and being attacked at any time with any weapon in the game except supers, without the benefit of bridging 10,000 of your closest friends at the drop of a hat. Someone intent on burning your towers WILL burn your towers. Hisec gives you 24 hours notice before you can be freely attacked; an active corp wouldn't even need defenses on their towers, and can afford to run medium or small towers because they'd have plenty of warning time to relocate anything valuable.

Can thought please be given to scrapping the installation cost ISK sink for W-space (and Sov Nullsec)? If we hire a special team, sure, that will rightly add costs, and those costs should be based on the installation costs that would otherwise have been applied. But without a special team, the ISK sink doesn't make sense; further penalizing W-space and Sov Nullsec compared to hisec doesn't make sense either, and seems to run contrary to your stated intention that higher risk means higher reward.

It still wouldn't reduce our operating costs to hisec levels, but it might bring overall costs close enough for hisec competition to be more of a factor.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#82 - 2014-07-09 13:41:21 UTC
Quote:
That’s it for Team Super Friends. This might actually be the last dev blog from Super Friends, as the team will no longer exist with the same member composition as a result of some changes to better facilitate the new frequent release cadence. Some members have joined other teams and some have joined a new team. While Super Friends might be done, you can still expect to hear more from all of us in the future and we will be keeping a close eye on all things related to industry.


Well, as you’ll have some time on your hands, have a stab at the tooltip fiasco then.

It’s been left in its sorry state with no comment from any Dev for ages. Not exactly a shock tbh.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#83 - 2014-07-09 14:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Hisec industry has more than enough money to dominate the market in teams. Leveraging this will require more co-operation and collaboration than currently exists. We're pretty hopeful that, once the initial shock of change has worn off, at least one system in hisec will realize this and lead the way for everyone else, leading hisec industry to be a much more casually collaborative activity, which we think adds a lot of value for all those players. This doesn't require a huge amount of formal co-operation, just an agreement on what teams you want to target and how much everyone is willing to chip in.

We will be keeping an eye on this, and if it ends up not working out and hisec industry remains completely resistant to any kind of social interaction with other players, we'll revisit this.


You truly have no clue on the mindset of the bulk of your player base, do you?

Many, many players of Eve do not have the time, the inclination, nor the ability to get involved with the level of "social interaction" that you are forcing them into. When I run incursions, which is a socially interactive situation, players jump on for a couple hours, have some giggles on TeamSpeak, shoot some red X's, and log off. That level of commitment is simple, and relaxing, and fun, which this game is supposed to be.

But the level of intellectual commitment and coordination you are expecting high sec industrialists to engage in is a completely different level, and very few want it or will do it, otherwise they would be doing it today.

You want to kill off the casual player from Eve? Fine. It is your call. It is an incredibly stupid decision, one you will find out soon enough about. I can only wait until you decide mission running, mining, and exploration should require the same level of "social interaction".

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
The most efficient method to make ISK under the new industry paradigm will be a very small group of null sec cartel industrialists, all with vast armies of alts. That group will operate under very strict conditions about who makes what, when it is made, where, and how much, and what teams will be bid on. Their level of "social interaction" will be minimal, no more than the cartel financial "elite" have today, which is still far more than the high sec players want. Why not just *) state what this always was, another massive gift to the null sec cartels.

One last thing: How on earth will you "revisit this", after you have completely overhauled every single industrial mechanic in the game?


*) *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#84 - 2014-07-09 14:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Update on multiple-structure bonuses for starbases.

We've just had another discussion about this system as-implemented, and based on your feedback, the technical challenges involved in implementing it in a fully user-friendly way, and the somewhat limited upsides of the feature, we've decided to cut it from Crius.

Having multiple starbase structures of the same type at a starbase will no longer grant you any bonus above those inherent in the structure itself

The only substantial downside to this is that it makes it much easier to weaponize an industry tower, so we are considering upping lab/array fitting costs substantially in a later release. We likely will not do this in Crius itself as people will need time to reconfigure their setups.

We are looking into what we can do to mitigate the expected glut of labs resulting from this change; more info as we work through this process :)

Thanks for all your feedback,
-Greyscale



Wow, just wow...still screwing around with major changes in the new industrial mechanics 13 days before this disaster goes live. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

BTW, you just wiped out the Isotope and PI markets, as everyone will be putting up small POS's now, unless they simply want the EHP benefits of a large POS.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2014-07-09 14:18:01 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
Robert Almart wrote:
Does this mean you are going to tax me for researching at a POS as well as making me fuel the POS? What is the point of a high sec POS if there is no benefit to having a POS.


Installation cost is not tax. POS manufacturing is free from the additional 10% NPC tax that is added to installation costs. It also gets a 2% material benefit with the assembly arrays.


Until you actually TRY TO USE THE POS
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#86 - 2014-07-09 14:46:54 UTC
DoToo Foo wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Update on multiple-structure bonuses for starbases.
...

The only substantial downside to this is that it makes it much easier to weaponize an industry tower, so we are considering upping lab/array fitting costs substantially in a later release. We likely will not do this in Crius itself as people will need time to reconfigure their setups.
...
-Greyscale


This concerns me somewhat. We currently run multiple lab slots because of pilot demand, but we also run weaponised POS with industry on the side. Crazy wormhole industrialists I know, but we do exist.

I fully expect that a highsec POS would be able to do more with a smaller POS due to relying on Concord for initial defense (at least until the wardecs happen.

I also would understand a mild increase in cpu/power grid for modules. I will no longer be running as many labs as I do now, so doubling (or even a little more) the requirements does make sense.

Please be aware that the primary use of LSAA's for many wormhole corps is secure storage and not ship building.
Doubling the fitting requirements LSAA's (without creating a very large corp hanger array as an option) may cause some forum angst.


Good info, thanks. We will of course consult further before we change anything :)
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#87 - 2014-07-09 15:05:52 UTC
For whomever is counting...

1 POS coming down (maybe 2), 2 accounts expiring this week.

Teams of NPC's... Roll

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.

Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2014-07-09 15:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
I'm getting more and more disgusted with EvE.

I am a casual gamer with EvE and these changes will NOT make me more dedicated. In fact, I no longer recommend EvE to people.

I am a solo player. I don't have to time (due to RL pressures) or the inclination (I want to relax, not over-stress) to play as CCP is trying to force us to.

I am a miner and a builder. BOTH of these occupations have been drastically altered by CCP in recent "Updates". Modifying the way I play enough to SURVIVE in the new system REQUIRED I had to start a new character. It will take MONTHS for that character to skill up to the level of play my earlier characters enjoyed in the prior, "non-Upgraded" system.

Unlike other players, I don't have the funds, computer, or inclination to run multiple accounts (alts). I use one computer, run one character, on one account.

That account expires in November. Take a guess if it will be renewed. Of course, CCP doesn't care.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2014-07-09 15:30:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Teams can work on all jobs in a system.

Heh - so the pharmacists at Osco Drugs can also work simultaneously at Walgreens fulfilling prescriptions!
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#90 - 2014-07-09 15:54:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


We will be keeping an eye on this, and if it ends up not working out and hisec industry remains completely resistant to any kind of social interaction with other players, we'll revisit this.


The only thing you are doing is creating a ******* gigantic wall that new players trying to start in industry will never be able to leap over. You're killing them off before they even get a clue of "social interaction" and "cooperative" game play. You haven't ever been able to get the NPE right. How in the hell are you going to keep them interested enough to make it through a torturous industry tutorial long enough to give them ideas when they barely complete the "boarding ship" and "push this button to fire" segments??

Well, there is one other thing - "casual player" the door is thataway ------>
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#91 - 2014-07-09 16:01:05 UTC
Quote:
We added filtering options in the starmap, allowing players to filter by industry activity and cost.

SmileBig smileLol

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Lee Hyori
New Horizons
#92 - 2014-07-09 16:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lee Hyori
CCP Greyscale wrote:
...
...

Good info, thanks. We will of course consult further before we change anything :)


Is it ironic?

Rather than discuss the side effects caused by changes introduced by Cryus: a pre-devblog would have been appreciated.

Industrialists did not want to be machines "clicker". Instead of that, you put in the trashcan years of effort that can not be considered as advantages.

Only a few days to wait for what I consider as a Revolution, not an evolution.

A month of fuel in my POSes to do some tests, what we can not do on SISI and I decide whether or not to remove it.

Signed by a miner / researcher / inventor (all races) / builder.

If CCP want to check my account and all the chars I owned, not a problem for me.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#93 - 2014-07-09 16:31:48 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Teams can work on all jobs in a system.

Heh - so the pharmacists at Osco Drugs can also work simultaneously at Walgreens fulfilling prescriptions!



Think of them as management teams.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#94 - 2014-07-09 16:46:32 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
I'm getting more and more disgusted with EvE.

I am a casual gamer with EvE and these changes will NOT make me more dedicated. In fact, I no longer recommend EvE to people.

I am a solo player. I don't have to time (due to RL pressures) or the inclination (I want to relax, not over-stress) to play as CCP is trying to force us to.

I am a miner and a builder. BOTH of these occupations have been drastically altered by CCP in recent "Updates". Modifying the way I play enough to SURVIVE in the new system REQUIRED I had to start a new character. It will take MONTHS for that character to skill up to the level of play my earlier characters enjoyed in the prior, "non-Upgraded" system.

Unlike other players, I don't have the funds, computer, or inclination to run multiple accounts (alts). I use one computer, run one character, on one account.

That account expires in November. Take a guess if it will be renewed. Of course, CCP doesn't care.


Who says that EVE is friendly to casual play in all aspects of the game? EVE is real-time and nearly every aspect of it is PvP from ship explosions to market pricing to hauling opportunities. In many areas, if you are not logged in, you are missing something in the game. For some, this is an insurmountable barrier to their enjoyment. Others have come to accept their place in the game and live within that definition. By its very nature, those with more time in-game will likely have greater success than those who do not. However, many others have shown that you can still be very successful even with limited in-game activity especially in the market and industrial areas.

Will you make maximum profit as a casual player? Unlikely, but I have yet to see any indication from these changes that even a casual player will not be able to find a way to exist and be successful in the game. If anything, the changes seem to me to allow more options for the casual player to be successful, not less, by improving the process of industry to be less time consuming leaving you more time to fiddle with what really matters, competing on the market. There are enough points of cost in the system (not just materials and time) that there will be more flexibility now for people to meet at the same cost through different configurations. Currently, either you make it with the least waste in the least time or you don't succeed and that is almost impossible for a new player to do...

El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-07-09 16:59:02 UTC
Obil Que wrote:




Will you make maximum profit as a casual player? Unlikely, but I have yet to see any indication from these changes that even a casual player will not be able to find a way to exist and be successful in the game. If anything, the changes seem to me to allow more options for the casual player to be successful, not less, by improving the process of industry to be less time consuming leaving you more time to fiddle with what really matters, competing on the market. There are enough points of cost in the system (not just materials and time) that there will be more flexibility now for people to meet at the same cost through different configurations. Currently, either you make it with the least waste in the least time or you don't succeed and that is almost impossible for a new player to do...



Contradictory rhetoric. How can it be both more flexible and "less time consuming"? One goal behind these changes is to promote lumpiness. Players are now expected to be mobile to some degree to exploit arbitrary changes. That is less time producing. The heat map graphics provided suggest as much. Achieving uniform costs is not a stated goal. And, this is about taking away gains from players who have already invested time and effort to achieve those gains. Currently there already are more options than "least waste" vs not succeeding. You can produce at different depths in your production chains, use consumables to modify output etc.

if you want time savings, let alts delegate work authority to assigned role holders so you don't need to click thru on multiple toons. UI changes will be visually appealing but it was a miss not to solicit player input in a more formal conceptual process.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#96 - 2014-07-09 18:08:57 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#97 - 2014-07-09 18:31:41 UTC
Woo Mi wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Teams can work on all jobs in a system. And the bids are pooled at a system level. So folks in, say, highsec, get the benefit of shared bidding.


Can somebody point me to a post explaining what problem was solved by introducing teams and the bidding mechanic?
Was there not enough competition?
I can't imagine there were complaints that industrial entrepeneurs were staying too long in the same location.


The whys:
1) They were trying to solve how to drain more isk out of your wallet, therefore grinding more people into the arms of CCP's budget problems with PTW in hand.
2) Marketing says make things more complex, therefore "exciting". Lore and reality check disbelief be damned. (If industry has teams, then by gosh the ship NPC's should have a union! Pay for performance!! )
3) Bone tossing to Sov Null - for not having the balls to actually tackle the serious Sov mechanic nightmare.
Dorna Loone
Dark Star Demolition
#98 - 2014-07-09 18:50:00 UTC
Every time I come to these Industry Blogs hoping to find some changes. Each time my depression deepens as it only seems even more complicated than it did last time.

I honestly do not see my Eve playing lasting very long after Crius.

And actually, that makes me quite sad.
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-07-09 18:50:37 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

....hisec industry remains completely resistant to any kind of social interaction with other players...


That seems like quite an insult but insightful as to your opinion of current high sec industrialists.

To me it should be necessary to interact with the universe certainly but this expectation that I become bum chums with everyone in a system is quite over the top. The absolute last person I want to share my plans with is my competition and yet that is who you expect me to form a long term social relationship with – and apparently wont be happy if I don’t.

The idea of moving around just seems to be a pain in the backside. I don’t sell in a trade hub generally, I have set up my own market by producing a range of related items and selling them in a region where I am the only supplier. I go out and buy my materials from a trade hub or random sell orders and I sell in accordance with a high profit low volume vision of keeping things simple.
To take advantage of teams and sell stuff in the market I created a vital thing is not to encourage my competitors to compete with me, that means a lot of extra freighter time moving things from point of manufacture to point of sale.
I don't have more time to play Eve because you make a more time consuming system so all this patch seems to mean for me is that I can do less in Eve and that the game has significantly less opportunity for the entrepreneurial.

The poor set up of the corporation system seems to be the problem that needs solving. I am in an industrial corporation but do industry by myself since it would be too risky to myself or my corp to work together under the current or proposed system. I don’t use most of my BPO's most of the time and neither does my corp but there is no sensible way of sharing those resources – for example. Setting up my own micro corp so I can have a pos is how the system has been made – that should be a daft thing to do rather than the norm.
There seems endless opportunity to improve the pos and corporation system to allow for co-operation and even if that is a complicated and long term goal it remains frustrating to see resources wasted on this sort of weird artificial mess of a system in the interim.

We want to be social, we dont have and are not about to recieve the necessary tools.
Dorna Loone
Dark Star Demolition
#100 - 2014-07-09 19:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

Count the (non CCP Staff) posts on this thread into 'likes' and 'hates'. Then ask yourself whether or not this element of Crius should proceed?

That is my constructive comment. (and I haven't actually counted them myself)