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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

First post First post First post
Author
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#21 - 2014-07-02 21:05:37 UTC
Tikitina wrote:



But, those who already do the current system and reap in the benefits of unlimited power projection will never support it.
Why should they?



I support it because its best for the game. It's not about making things harder its about accomplishing the same task through different means. I think it would be awesome for miners and industrialist to have an important impactful place in nullsec. One where PVPrs are encouraged to create an environment where those activities could be undertaken. Where hostiles would have reasons to raid and interdict those activities. These are conflict drivers that are real and tangible. Something were solely lacking in nullsec. Currently you attack a R64 a CSAA or you attack Sov. Thats it for in-game conflict drivers. The rest is made up narratives used to motivate people. Small to medium sized gangs have no way of spurring combat other than to show up and hope their opponent is sporting and fancy's a fight.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Current Habit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-07-02 21:22:42 UTC
The Ironfist wrote:

[...] Because the size of wallets wont matter as much anymore when carriers and dreads cost 200 and 350mil to build respectively[...].


Those numbers seem really low, can you explain how do you get to them? (I assume it's optimizing everything with teams, thukker cap component arrarys etc.)
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-07-02 21:30:37 UTC
Current Habit wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:

[...] Because the size of wallets wont matter as much anymore when carriers and dreads cost 200 and 350mil to build respectively[...].


Those numbers seem really low, can you explain how do you get to them? (I assume it's optimizing everything with teams, thukker cap component arrarys etc.)


Amarr outpost in 0.0? Go on testserver and have a look they get a flat 30% req. reduction on everything for capitals that means 30% less minerals to build the capital parts and again 30% less capital components to build the capital itself and if you upgrade the station you can get that bonus up even higher.. It seems CCP is been really quite about it which is wired given that it is on SISI.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2014-07-02 21:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Manfred Sideous wrote:

We got along just fine before jumpfreighters on fueling pos and moving moongoo. But in order to do so your alliance would want to police its space so you could move about. Also we used these things back in the day when we moved haulers and freighters called scouts and intel channels they were so OP.
...
Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.


you used a carrier

seriously, do you not remember that a carrier used to be the logistical backbone of 0.0 and the jump freighter was introduced when the carrier was nerfed? (edit: fun fact, goonswarm's first supercapital was built as a logistics ship, xttz's nyx)

also there has never been a time when jump-capable ships did not exist and freighters did. i don't know if people used logistics dreads, but I sure would have.

the forums ate my post deconstructing your faulty memory about what eve used to be, and I'll have to go back and redo it but you appear to badly misremember how things worked based on what was patched in when and I do not believe this era of mining locally and producing locally ever actually existed - much less in FIX, which lived in Querious, a region with its conq refinery seven jumps from the nearest conq factory - but highsec a mere 9 jumps from the closest conq station to highsec.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-07-02 21:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
The Ironfist wrote:
Amarr outpost in 0.0? Go on testserver and have a look they get a flat 30% req. reduction on everything for capitals that means 30% less minerals to build the capital parts and again 30% less capital components to build the capital itself and if you upgrade the station you can get that bonus up even higher.. It seems CCP is been really quite about it which is wired given that it is on SISI.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. amarr is supposed to 30% TIME reduction and someone goofed on sisi. the plan is with a mere 12 eggs moved from highsec in a freighter, 12 eggs worth of fillings moved, and about 60b isk you can get an amarr factory to 5% ME off once crius hits

it won't be 30% off
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-07-02 21:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Retar Aveymone wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Amarr outpost in 0.0? Go on testserver and have a look they get a flat 30% req. reduction on everything for capitals that means 30% less minerals to build the capital parts and again 30% less capital components to build the capital itself and if you upgrade the station you can get that bonus up even higher.. It seems CCP is been really quite about it which is wired given that it is on SISI.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. amarr is supposed to 30% TIME reduction and someone goofed on sisi. the plan is with a mere 12 eggs moved from highsec in a freighter, 12 eggs worth of fillings moved, and about 60b isk you can get an amarr factory to 5% ME off once crius hits

it won't be 30% off


It has 30% time as well right now. *Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal. And 5% for 60b would be a really bad deal. I'd call it pointless.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2014-07-02 21:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Yeah because the moment they released capitals and supercapitals everyone had them that instant and were using them at such a rate that it had the impact on the game that they do today or even close for that matter :colbert:


Ok, so here's the problem: your recollections don't really match reality. Back before jump drives, there were no outposts. In 0.0, each region had three stations: two factories, one refinery. If you wanted to build locally, you had to mine minerals, move them to the refinery, refine, then move to the factory.

You had to do this all in an iteron because hulks and freighters did not exist.

Most regions have the refinery nowhere near the factory. Querious didn't. You'd be moving small amounts of minerals tons of jumps. And you're claiming people didn't just mine the ABC (which were hugely valuble), they mined the veld and stuff as well and produced locally. But people who did that were idiots, even back then. ABC was worth far, far more than veld, not least because you could produce infinite trit in empire with NPC seeded shuttles. So if you wanted to build something, you'd mine ABC, bring the minerals to empire in an iteron (billions fits in one iteron), bring those minerals to yulai, and sell them.

Then for a battleship or anything big you'd just fly the stupid thing back. But if you really wanted to build locally, you'd bring in an iteron of passive targeters, built from the infinite shuttle trit, and then refine that for gadzooks of trit in your conquerable refinery. You'd then putter your iteron back and forth 7 jumps to the factory station. Now, given that you're stuck with an iteron, and are moving less than one battleship's worth of minerals at a time, you're far better off just flying prebuilt battleships from Yulai (brought in on the superhighways to your jumpoff point). You're only going to be building cruisers or below with this god-awful backwards setup that was only fun at the time because it was novel - you were exploring a new type of gameplay and it was interesting. Novelty wears off.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2014-07-02 21:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
The Ironfist wrote:


It has 30% time as well right now. *Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal. And 5% for 60b would be a really bad deal. I'd call it pointless.

They've said the 30% mineral off is a bug (amarr stations right now have 30% time off and are supposed to retain that bonus in crius). The 5% is direct from the devblog, and it's the highest ME off you can get from 0.0 (each manufacturing slot upgrade becomes a 1% me off upgrade, and an amarr can fit the most at 5).
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-07-02 22:32:14 UTC
The problem is the same reason that we use large cargo ships for moving goods between China and the United States. The economy is much larger now than it was then. This is besides the fact that carriers have been in the game since Exodus: Red Moon Rising which was released in December 16, 2005 and POSes were only added to the game a year beforehand in the Exodus expansion which was released November 17, 2004. There have only been 2 years in all of EvE when 0.0 ever existed without jump capable ships being in the game. 0.0 was released in the Castor expansion December 18, 2003. Your main Mainfred Sideous was created 2005/12/17 which means you have never once, other than maybe by a few hours, unless you had a character before Manfred Sideous, played eve before Carriers were available in the game.

Freighters and Jump Freighters were added in the Trinity expansion December 5, 2007. EvE was a major pain in the ass back then. Regardless of how rose tinted your shades. As someone who started in 2009, part of alliances that did not have the isk to afford a JF (especially back when T2 prices were so insanely expensive during the height of OTEC), doing alliance OPs to escort freighters and Orcas through low-sec into null sucks. It is not fun, it is not enjoyable, it is not "cool," it sucks.

That does not lower the barrier to entry into 0.0 either, as you need a massive fleet to protect your freighter/JF with your proposed changes. As soon as you are spotted on the out-gate from high-sec to low sec a fleet will be forming to kill or suicide gank that freighter going gate to gate through lowsec.

This concept of yours may have worked back 250k less subs ago, but EvE hit 500k subs back in 2013. The player base is much larger and more diverse. Besides, some of us have jobs to do IRL.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#30 - 2014-07-02 22:43:49 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:


Freighters and Jump Freighters were added in the Trinity expansion December 5, 2007. EvE was a major pain in the ass back then. Regardless of how rose tinted your shades. As someone who started in 2009, part of alliances that did not have the isk to afford a JF (especially back when T2 prices were so insanely expensive during the height of OTEC), doing alliance OPs to escort freighters and Orcas through low-sec into null sucks. It is not fun, it is not enjoyable, it is not "cool," it sucks.


T2 has been cheap since like 2007. I remember 80mil isk for a covert ops cloak 2. 15mil for 1 T2 large gun. Mods are so cheap now its laughable. Yeah freighter ops aren't a fun thing to do everyday. That's why you would change things so more can be done locally negating the need of freighter ops or at least limiting the need for them.
Allison A'vani wrote:

That does not lower the barrier to entry into 0.0 either, as you need a massive fleet to protect your freighter/JF with your proposed changes. As soon as you are spotted on the out-gate from high-sec to low sec a fleet will be forming to kill or suicide gank that freighter going gate to gate through lowsec.


Hahahahaha talk about barrier for entry. You need 1500 man capable fleets as we stand to own sov in Nullsec because if you don't and CFC or N3/PL affix there gaze at you you are done. Its as simple as that. So the barrier of entry of a 100 dudes or so to move a freighter isn't bad. Especially since ill repeat you would change as much as possible to make doing things locally as in "not bringing everything in via empire" limiting the need for freighter ops.

Allison A'vani wrote:
This concept of yours may have worked back 250k less subs ago, but EvE hit 500k subs back in 2013. The player base is much larger and more diverse. Besides, some of us have jobs to do IRL.

This concept scales across any size so uh yea.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-07-02 22:44:03 UTC
To be honest jump ships always seemed backwards to me: it would make more sense that the giant lumbering siege warships would have to be the ones to slowly waddle towards combat and waddle out while the smaller ships could jump much farther distances much faster. Instead, our giant lumbering siege ships blink into combat and out while our smaller ships have to take the long slow route (or at least did until every fc finally got their own titan alt).

It would be much less problematic for a small border war that doesn't want to escalate into the next galactic war if goonfleet or PL could only cyno in their subcap fleet but not their capital fleet into the battle instead of the other way around.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-07-03 00:21:53 UTC
I can understand where you are coming from on all your points Manny, I guess I just don't think that is fun. It really just sounds like boring work to me. I might agree with things like having constellation wide solv with constellation wide cyno jamers, but essentially making everything prohibitively more expensive or more of a pain to move just sounds like bad game design to me.

BTW when I started in 2009 a T2 ship was an extremely expensive investment that I would have never spent the money on, even if I had the proper skills to fly it. All your proposals are fine in the world view where you can freely replace what ever you want, but for those who do not have mountainous isk reserves, t2 cruisers were as far away a pipe dream as owning a capital. Even at current prices, my Rhea is worth more isk than I went through my first three years in the game combined (2009, 2010 and 2011).

Furthermore, if these kind of changes went into effect, what reason is there to bother living in 0.0 at all other than to have your name on the map? You make more isk in WH, and in terms of ISK per Effort you would be better off in Low Sec or High Sec. Your changes basically just sound like you want all of New Eden to be WH space.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2014-07-03 01:54:51 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
To be honest jump ships always seemed backwards to me: it would make more sense that the giant lumbering siege warships would have to be the ones to slowly waddle towards combat and waddle out while the smaller ships could jump much farther distances much faster. Instead, our giant lumbering siege ships blink into combat and out while our smaller ships have to take the long slow route (or at least did until every fc finally got their own titan alt).

It would be much less problematic for a small border war that doesn't want to escalate into the next galactic war if goonfleet or PL could only cyno in their subcap fleet but not their capital fleet into the battle instead of the other way around.


7 minutes across the universe sure is kind of stupid for a ship like an archon when an interceptor need an hour.
christmascaveman
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-07-03 04:09:00 UTC
Jump bridges and jump drives provide enough force projection that large entities can move entire fleets across half of eve for a defense fleet. If there is a POS times at 0800 eve in the deklein and a post timer at 1000 eve in period basis, its possible for the entire coalition to be at both timers. If someone deploys to the other side of eve, you can't start a second front and try to take their home region because they are able cover timers in different regions.
Anthar Thebess
#35 - 2014-07-03 06:49:31 UTC
+1 from me.
I don't agree in most terms, but for sure.
Something have to be done.

Sorry but EVE becomes boring.
Hotdrops, capitals , supers everywhere.

I own 4 capital characters - but this is wrong way :/
Anthar Thebess
#36 - 2014-07-03 11:14:41 UTC
Look at current map.
There is nothing more than CFC and NCPL. *

* Provi is left to farm some kills, the same reason for Brave sov.

Power projection, and the ability to relocate on the other side of the map all your forces < 1h makes the eve nullsec one big nonsense.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-07-03 12:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#38 - 2014-07-03 13:17:36 UTC
One thing that people don't seem to understand is this (cold war coalitions) is a natural progression and given enough time would probably self-regulate. Now, I'm not suggesting that it should be given enough time to self-regulate, just that it probably would. Stability provides profitability. Warfare costs... a lot!

The problem with most of the "lets fix sov nullsec" ideas is when you boil it down it hurts the little guy just as much as the big coalitions and in most cases the big coalitions could mitigate whatever the changes are but the little guys couldn't.

There's also the issue of screwing those who are "winning" just because people are complaining about it. How would you like it if you were winning at a computer game and just because others didn't like it the game provider changed the game so you weren't. Not because you'd actually done anything wrong, just because there wasn't currently anyone to challenge you and a few people whined about it.

Well, in this situation there is someone to challenge. In an all out war between N3/PL and CFC the outcome is far from predetermined. But... they don't seem to want all out war, presumably because it would threaten the empires that they've built. Well, not until one side thinks they can pretty much guarantee squashing the other, perhaps.

Here's a question for you: If everyone who's sick of sov nullsec joined Provi or HERO, would it be enough bodies to threaten CFC or N3/PL? What about if this happened and Provi and HERO joined together?

Now, I'm not saying change isn't needed because I think it is but only if it's fair and doesn't unduly penalise those that have built up empires because they don't deserve to have their efforts squashed just because some people complain on the forums.
Dhaq
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-07-03 13:39:33 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Here's a question for you: If everyone who's sick of sov nullsec joined Provi or HERO, would it be enough bodies to threaten CFC or N3/PL? What about if this happened and Provi and HERO joined together?.


For a lot of people I think the problem is having to be part of a mega entity, more so than who those entities are. So everyone joining Provi or HERO would just be more of the same.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#40 - 2014-07-03 14:16:26 UTC
Dhaq wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
Here's a question for you: If everyone who's sick of sov nullsec joined Provi or HERO, would it be enough bodies to threaten CFC or N3/PL? What about if this happened and Provi and HERO joined together?.


For a lot of people I think the problem is having to be part of a mega entity, more so than who those entities are. So everyone joining Provi or HERO would just be more of the same.

Yes, and that is a problem. Whilst one can argue (and I have) that this is a natural progression and that if you want to play in the big leagues you have to either grow into it or join one of the teams already in it, I can agree that it would be better if there was room for the smaller players.

So, there are a number of potential avenues to consider, some of which are:

1) Expand Sov Space - This is my favorite. If there was new space with significantly larger distances between stars that spread out from the outer boundaries of current Sov space it might alleviate the issue. The closer you are to Empire the easier it is to travel. The further out you go the less impact your jump drive has. Then shift nearly all the good moons further out making that the desirable space. It would massively increase the time for a fleet to get from one side of the map to the other. It would also mean that a lot of the space closer to Empire would be freed up as the current 2 massive coalitions took the more profitable space further out meaning that there would (hopefully) be space for smaller entities to take due to the distance issues making the big coalitions let go of the less profitable space. It would also mean that the better space you have the more pain in the backside it is to get to highsec and back. This is all off the top of my head so there are probably holes in it.

2) Reduce current sov holding through mechanics changes - This is rather intrusive and would likely garner complaint from the two main power blocs. Lots of potentials for this have been suggested on this forum and most have been soundly shot down.

3) Remove or massively reduce jump capability to enlarge the EVE galaxy by increasing travel times by a large factor - I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen as it has WAY to many people against it, understandably.

It sure is a thorny subject though.