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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Author
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-07-03 15:22:34 UTC
Hm, you know, with the new Region and/or Regions opening up in hopefully near future expansions, we might actually start to see some answers to a lot of these concerns. Its possible CCP might even give us the cake and let us eat it too. Current regions/sov mechanics may be left as-is, and who knows what possibilities will be open with the new region.

Perhaps they will be set up in a way that doesn't support projection, or allows for independant self-contained sustenance. We shall see. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#42 - 2014-07-03 15:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
mynnna wrote:
There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.



I see you can throw stones well but in you're superior mind do you actually have any real ideas that bring us to a endstate of revitalizing nullsec and deals with the power projection problem? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#43 - 2014-07-03 16:10:56 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:

also there has never been a time when jump-capable ships did not exist and freighters did. i don't know if people used logistics dreads, but I sure would have.


Yes, they did. Revelations with lows full of expanded cargoholds used to be a thing. A hilarious thing.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#44 - 2014-07-03 16:13:58 UTC
The fact remains that nullsec as it stands is broken and has been for some time. I really think it would be cool to see a more diverse nullsec. I mean N3/PL control over 1500 systems and 500 stations and CFC controls a similar amount as well. Thats just dumb but we all are just playing with the tools and rules we are given. Everyone likes winning so in the end will exploit any advantage to improve chances of victory or victorious endstate. Real change needs to happen.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2014-07-04 00:57:57 UTC
What if jump range were reduced by some but only on combat ships while the logistic part of jumping was left as it to not create even more of a clusterfuck of anger for anybody doing logistics? Could that reduce power projection at some point or would it only be a matter of "light more cynos/jump more often"? Bringing supplies to the other side of the map is kinda "required" to prevent complete burnout of logi people by now but but can we put something to prevent people from fighting on the other side of the map the same "x whatever unit of time" as they did on the first side?
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-07-04 02:02:21 UTC
I've advocated something along these lines in the past, as have others. Allowing capital ships to use stargates, but still having them use their own jump drives (and use that fuel) is a sound plan. Instead of huge swaths of 'buffer' space against bridging, space will actually be used. Smaller alliances will be able to move into space abandoned by the larger alliances who can't maintain a proper defence on such a large area. Scouts will be able to see fleets coming instead of a neutral alt dropping a cyno being the first warning. Escorting convoys will be a thing again. Nullsec industry gets another boost. Hardcore pvper's start to appreciate having miners and industrialists in their midst. It's all good.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

J A Aloysiusz
Risk Breakers
SONS of BANE
#47 - 2014-07-04 02:32:35 UTC
I'm against most of your proposed changes, but I will say that I agree that importation and exportation is far too easy with jump freighters. They are essentially impossible to kill in low and null sec.

In my opinion, null sec pvp blocs should be significantly more reliant on local industry, rather than just importing everything from jita. I won't speculate on the best way to achieve this.
terri edelweis
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-07-04 06:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: terri edelweis
I like these ideas. With the exception that I would limit the changes to combat capitals. Leave JF as they are or nerf them only slightly. This would solve the logistical problems many have pointed out in this thread.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-07-04 07:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Manfred Sideous
mynnna wrote:
There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."

[i wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.[/i]
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.



I see you can throw stones well but in you're superior mind do you actually have any real ideas that bring us to a endstate of revitalizing nullsec and deals with the power projection problem? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Bits and pieces, more to some problems than others. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Tikitina
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-07-04 07:15:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
To be honest jump ships always seemed backwards to me: it would make more sense that the giant lumbering siege warships would have to be the ones to slowly waddle towards combat and waddle out while the smaller ships could jump much farther distances much faster. Instead, our giant lumbering siege ships blink into combat and out while our smaller ships have to take the long slow route (or at least did until every fc finally got their own titan alt).

It would be much less problematic for a small border war that doesn't want to escalate into the next galactic war if goonfleet or PL could only cyno in their subcap fleet but not their capital fleet into the battle instead of the other way around.


7 minutes across the universe sure is kind of stupid for a ship like an archon when an interceptor need an hour.



I agree, the bigger the ship the longer it should take to get places.
Supporting fleets outside your home base should require some logistical effort though.


We need more realistic logistics.


Ideas
-Remove jump drives from caps/super caps
-Add jump drivers to all sub cap combat ships, and still allow them to use gates, with a jump range of about what a dread has now, or less, with fuel usage comparable to current bridging usage by mass, or more
-Maybe reduce all ships warp speed significantly and allow in system jumps
-Allow subcaps to jump without cynos within a few AU of the destination star, to allow interdiction by probers in destination system
-Ban freighters from being able to carry jump fuel
-Give transports ships and special industrials the ability to carry fuel

Change jump fuel to be very in-expensive high volume so the challenge is not having enough isk to buy it...
The challenge is getting enough shipped to where you need it.

Also, for your sub cap to move at greatest rate of speed, you need jump fuel, otherwise you need to warp gate to gate at a reduced speed.


This could be done to not affect miners too much by simple increasing rates mined

That in itself would do a lot to limit power projection since only smaller sized ship raiding forces would have the ability to get places quick.

This would also promote locals to keep fuel off the public markets so they don't end up fueling hostile raids.




Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2014-07-04 07:19:44 UTC
Tikitina wrote:

That in itself would do a lot to limit power projection since only smaller sized ship raiding forces would have the ability to get places quick.


How's that? You'd just bridge or jump Alpha Maels 100 km away from a bubbled fleet and kill them. For instance. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Tikitina
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-07-04 07:26:10 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Tikitina wrote:

That in itself would do a lot to limit power projection since only smaller sized ship raiding forces would have the ability to get places quick.


How's that? You'd just bridge or jump Alpha Maels 100 km away from a bubbled fleet and kill them. For instance. Roll



Since we are talking primarily about the power projection of Cap Fleets...

I don't think your Alpha Maels will make up the difference.


Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#53 - 2014-07-04 07:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I am pretty sure that 250 Maels or Megas make a difference. ^^

Replacing one power projection tool with another equally powerful projection tool is not really going to solve the problem. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Anthar Thebess
#54 - 2014-07-04 08:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
1. Add new pockets of npc space having stations / create new gate connections that each SOV region have connection to NPC space

2. Make SuperCapitals different than normal capitals, make them burn more fuel ( titan is burning the same amount of fuel like a carrier, but is few dozen times bigger ) and force them to use additional structures to initiate regional, or even a constellation jump.

3. Make capital jump drives different and crossing regions can be allowed only on specific locations, what more important regional jump will use 90% of capital fuel ... so better have fuel track ready.

4. Limit JF usage , at the cost of increasing null -> low wormhole chance.

5. Remove titan bridges , or at least make them less desirable
* for example people jumping to the systems get :
- spread ~ 5 AU from cyno
- AND have 1-2 minute session that don't allow them to do nothing ( "Excessive EM radiation from titans bridge requires all ship systems to reboot")

6. Make cynos mas dependent , so you cannot bridge a whole 255 man battleship fleet to one ibis cyno ship, or even better make cyno unstable after using 1/4 of its "transit" mass. It can go into unstable mode , not allowing any one else to bridge , and at the same time locking titans ability to bridge any one more until cyno will die , or ends its cycle.

7. Make holding sov more absorbing.
- you have to fight incursions, if you will not , you will loose SOV in those systems after 2 days, and in order to get it back you have to achieve some few day objective
- local rats assaulting player operations , why not let them shoot poses , do mini incursions to take back their systems
( please don't tell me that SOV should be only about PVP - check in game map "rats killed 24h", most of the nullsec players are farmers. And this 5-10% population mostly focused on pvp will have much more targets this way , as players will have to defend their poses, fight those incursions , or uprising)

8. Make sov status depended on your activity.
The more rats you kill , the higher sec status (-1.0 -> 0.0 ) , so less spawns, and worst type.
If system is idle it have its status lowering slowly ( 0.0 -> -1.0 ) and at -0.9 you get a local npc pirate uprising , if you will not fight it within 3 days after sov drops to -1.0 , they are victorious and all sov infrastructure is going off-line ( rats will hit those structures , so eventually they will kill TCU and ihub.

9. Force TCU location on 5 AU from any object , not on pos, stations etc.


There are many ways , but this require work , and CCP don't want to put any work in nullsec , and player base is shrinking.
Drak d'Amral
Sonnenlegion
Shadow Cartel
#55 - 2014-07-04 09:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Drak d'Amral
i like your point about make unused system more expensiv, and i like the idea that when a system is more away from a homesystem of a alliance it will be more expensive for the sov



Quote:
7. Make holding sov more absorbing.
- you have to fight incursions, if you will not , you will loose SOV in those systems after 2 days, and in order to get it back you have to achieve some few day objective
- local rats assaulting player operations , why not let them shoot poses , do mini incursions to take back their systems
( please don't tell me that SOV should be only about PVP - check in game map "rats killed 24h", most of the nullsec players are farmers. And this 5-10% population mostly focused on pvp will have much more targets this way , as players will have to defend their poses, fight those incursions , or uprising)

8. Make sov status depended on your activity.
The more rats you kill , the higher sec status (-1.0 -> 0.0 ) , so less spawns, and worst type.
If system is idle it have its status lowering slowly ( 0.0 -> -1.0 ) and at -0.9 you get a local npc pirate uprising , if you will not fight it within 3 days after sov drops to -1.0 , they are victorious and all sov infrastructure is going off-line ( rats will hit those structures , so eventually they will kill TCU and ihub.


i like i like, it would make 0.0 more dynamic
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-07-04 10:30:03 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Arrow Jumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)

I think you could probably do with allowing jumps within the constellation (I don't want to say region because they can vary in size pretty wildly), you're still talking about short range here if you do that but it seems to me that jump drives would only be useful for skipping through a gate camp if you're going to allow all capitals to jump through star gates. Additionally a system at the center of a constellation would get a lot more bang for the buck for using a jump bridge than one on a pipe system.

I haven't been playing since the beginning but I have been playing long enough to remember when people kept an up-to-date list of Titan pilots because it was still worth your time to do so. I believe when I started that number was 6. I also remember raids on sovereign space being a common thing. At one point I lived in Dekelin and we had systems within 5 jumps of the station in 3JN that were red systems despite technically being owned by us (or at least surrounded by us, my memory on this isn't perfect but there was an NPC station there). Content from them was daily at least.

Any changes made will not address the core issue which is that those in control of null must like it the way it is. If they didn't it is literally within their power to change it. Only a massive divide in the major coalitions can shake things up at this stage and failing that about the only other thing I can think of is merging our server with the Chinese one. The Mittani wouldn't have to try to find stories to write about then. The only other thing to do would be to add a few more regions in different areas of null sec which are vastly more lucrative than any currently in existence and let greed work its magic. If the two existing super coalitions could survive that intact then we would just have to wait out their lifespans before we will see any excitement ever again.

If it really is true that the richer you get the more you're afraid to lose any of it then this is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. I have seen people with enough cash to afford a personal Titan who won't go on a duo roam with me in a pair of T1 cruisers and an empty clone. My largest ship is an Archon and I keep just enough to replace it should it be lost (EVE golden rule and all that). Any suggestion which has any hope of shaking things up will be vetoed by coalitions with the most invested. We may simply have to wait for the rich coalitions to get bored enough to stop playing to the point where their sov lapses and hope beyond hope there is a possibility of reviving the game's numbers later on.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#57 - 2014-07-04 11:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
We may simply have to wait for the rich coalitions to get bored enough to stop playing to the point where their sov lapses and hope beyond hope there is a possibility of reviving the game's numbers later on.

I certainly didn't expect an "eve is dying" argument here.

Why not suggest some measures aimed at just making the people who run things really miserable so they all burn out. Then other people can come in and, well, burn out too... but at least you'll have many different alliances all burning out. Seems to be the logic behind some of the power projection based suggestions here.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Elusive Panda
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-07-04 13:50:14 UTC

+1 (except the NPC trader thingy... find a better way to fix that).

To everyone saying that implementing those idea would make logistics impossible to keep things running on the current scale, that's the whole point of the changes proposed.

We're not looking for a solution that would do nothing, they HAVE TO make sustaining such incredibly large empire ~impossible or very tedious. The current status quo is the worst thing to happen in EVE in a long time. 2 coalitions with infinite income, agreeing to not attack each other, 2 smaller coaliton who are permitted to exist to generate "gud fights" for the line members. It's artificial, I love good fights like anybody else, but if it's ONLY fighting for the sake of fighting all the time, we're losing the sense of purpose here.

Maybe we could take a look at how WH corp lives and the mechanics in which they live in? I'm not saying turn all space to WH mechanics, but maybe we can learn something about it, there is no "supreme overlord" of WH space, everything happens on a much smaller scale. These corp do not have access to a JF and yet, they still manage to exist, don't they?

You could argue with me that they have much less jumps to do to reach empire space and resupply compared to the furthest 0.0 regions and that's true, maybe player buildable (and destructable) stargate would be the answer? Imagine, you live in Period Basis with your own little alliance who control the region and then you build a smuggler like stargate that links to querious and another one from there to Khanid. So in a very respectable number of jumps, you could be in low-sec empire space and then make your way to a trade hub.

You would need to patrol the supply pipe(s) and escort transport ship (Deep space transport with more cargo than they currently have could be nice here, mini-freighter designed for... deep space, you know?).
Moving large fleets could still be possible throught this new player made network of long range gate, but would be much more localized, static, predictable and counterable.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-07-04 14:38:35 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Dhaq wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
Here's a question for you: If everyone who's sick of sov nullsec joined Provi or HERO, would it be enough bodies to threaten CFC or N3/PL? What about if this happened and Provi and HERO joined together?.


For a lot of people I think the problem is having to be part of a mega entity, more so than who those entities are. So everyone joining Provi or HERO would just be more of the same.

Yes, and that is a problem. Whilst one can argue (and I have) that this is a natural progression and that if you want to play in the big leagues you have to either grow into it or join one of the teams already in it, I can agree that it would be better if there was room for the smaller players.

So, there are a number of potential avenues to consider, some of which are:

1) Expand Sov Space - This is my favorite. If there was new space with significantly larger distances between stars that spread out from the outer boundaries of current Sov space it might alleviate the issue. The closer you are to Empire the easier it is to travel. The further out you go the less impact your jump drive has. Then shift nearly all the good moons further out making that the desirable space. It would massively increase the time for a fleet to get from one side of the map to the other. It would also mean that a lot of the space closer to Empire would be freed up as the current 2 massive coalitions took the more profitable space further out meaning that there would (hopefully) be space for smaller entities to take due to the distance issues making the big coalitions let go of the less profitable space. It would also mean that the better space you have the more pain in the backside it is to get to highsec and back. This is all off the top of my head so there are probably holes in it.

2) Reduce current sov holding through mechanics changes - This is rather intrusive and would likely garner complaint from the two main power blocs. Lots of potentials for this have been suggested on this forum and most have been soundly shot down.

3) Remove or massively reduce jump capability to enlarge the EVE galaxy by increasing travel times by a large factor - I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen as it has WAY to many people against it, understandably.

It sure is a thorny subject though.



The "little guy" that everyone keeps referring to has access to NPC nullsec. The problem is that there's not a lot of npc null, not enough anyway and what there is has become quite crowded. Which is why I advocate expanding NPC nullsec space at the expense of sov-nullsec.

If CCP wants more players in nullsec, then we need more NPC nullsec space.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

GodsWork
Realm of God
#60 - 2014-07-04 15:05:28 UTC
Hey mate look at this see what you think. This will not only solve the sov problem but also eventually disolve mega alliances or coalitions


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356422&find=unread