Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I struggle to understand the mindset of people who say things like "just include a scram ship in your team". Please help me out here, what do you envision the team of a smallgang pvp group to be? Because unless you're including logis/falcons etc you can't include scrams easily without hugely changing your target selection profile. I'll try to explain.

Say you have just one guy, you can put people in ships for control (like recons), tackle (like inties), logis, on grid links or damage. Now obviously control, tackle, logi etc are all completely useless, what you need to do is come up with some kind of all round damage ship fit and do the best you can but that means things like scrams are way out.

If you add a second guy you can now do something like one eaf and one damage ship but that ratio is kinda sucky, the control lets you be more aggressive but your damage is no higher, nor the endurance of your fleet. Logi would be wasted, tackle is kinda viable but more often than not you're just gonna want a second dude.

For a third I often opt for a control ship, fourth maybe damage again, fifth tackle, and so forth. The point being that while these ships are nice to have in a fleet when you're solo or in a pair you have to make hard decisions about how each ship changes your target selection and things like a scram frigate and a logi to keep it alive are simply luxuries that you can't have in your 3 man fleet. It's more important to get that extra damage to break the huginn in time before tackle gets on or to have a LML boat to serve on anti interceptor duty. More and more in this game you come across special things which can only be countered by X and if you don't have X in your fleet then you're dead (TD crows are a good example of this) and that is really squeezing smallgang. The larger the gang gets the less the opportunity cost for any given decision and the easier it is to say "yeah, just have X ship, it'll counter Y, np" but in really small gang or solo situations the fact that something has a theoretical counter is not practically useful.

What this comes down to is decreased utility on the warp disruptor which is, at present, mandatory for an awful lot of smallgang and solo pvp and a solution that relies on a larger gang is no solution.

I really don't think anyone here should have to explain to a member of Clan Shadow Wolf how to build and run a small gang, let alone how to choose appropriate targets for the size and composition of his group. That's a compliment to your organization by the way.

If you feel you must be able to deal with MMJD BC's in the same fashion as other ships, you have options available. Gallante Recons in particular are ideally suited to the task and can be fitted out in a number of ways that add some interesting options to a small gang primarily outfitted for kiting attacks (or any other composition for that matter). And they are far from your only option.

Or you can simply do what most other people will do, in the unlikely event you run into a BC alone that you can't deal with because they have a MMJD on board, simply put them into the "non-viable target" category and move on.

The problem is not simply the specific change but the trend. Ignore now.. and soon we will have all cruisers with MJD.. than even destroyers...... Maybe cloak, warp bubble nullified T3s as well with MJD ?

What you mean to say is "all the small scale hypocrite PVPERS who suddenly are confronted with how they won't be having all their way anymore are scared shitless and are frantically trying to use any sort of :logic: why things should stay as they are". I solo PVP, actual solo, and I mostly kite because that's the only way to do it atm, Yes, with the changes I'll lose some targets, so what? Why should kiters have it all their way and why the FCK should kiting be the only viable strategy.

With this change kiters lose a few targets but at the same time people who want to solo another way, even if only once in a while, haver another option. Again; just because you figured out how kiting works you're not special, you're not amazing. You're just slightly better informed than the moronic masses... congratulations.

It still doesn't mean you should have it all your way and when stuff gets introduced that takes away some of the hilarious OPness, to bring some balance, you should act like crybaby carebears.

I cannot take you seriously between the insults and name calling.

You mean to tell me that there are things in eve that are unrealistic?

How dare you...

I'd like to echo this. Like, I am DOWN for some MJD action, but it felt like it made the battleship an option on the battlefield. It used to be that the BC was the go-to of choice because you could be swarmed to easily in a BS with no maneuverability to escape. With the BS having access to MJD tech, it gave them options that put them back in the game. BC's have MWD that lets them attempt to catch an escaped BS.

However once BC's have access, things swing back to how they used to be; BC's being more viable and cheaper, where we see fewer BS's and their market demand is lower than before as just PVE mission/site ships.

To whom it may concern,

In the original post, there are a few comments made that I was hoping could be clarified.



The bold part is the area that concerns me the most.

It is stated that BCs have been overshadowed by BS's. How / Why do you think this is the case? BS are hardly used in the solo / small gang world, and BS are still superior to most ships in Nul fleets. In what area in particular is the BC supposed to outperform the BS? Why do you feel and MMJD will fix this problem, and in what situation do you see it being used?

I feel that BC's are overshadowed by cruisers and ABC's. The former is simply faster, with better projection- while the latter is faster, has much more DPS with greater projection. Both of these qualities will mean that a CBC will not be picked for anything small gang / solo related. It is not the BS that compete with CBC's for this role.

From my point of view there are many things wrong with the BCs, and all of their problems will not be fixed by the MJD.

The first issue is speed. BC's are just simply way to slow in today's super fast cruiser / small ship meta. The fact that BC's struggle to even get above 2k/s with MWD, nano and snakes- is simply unplayable. Battleships are around the same speed (many are faster) however the BS sport more utility with heavy neuts, larger tanks, and much greater projection / DPS- that make the BS a much better choice for a heavier nanoship.

The MMJD Does nothing to address this issue.

The Second issue is projection. BC's don't have any optimal or falloff bonuses. The only worthwhile longer range BC's are the navy Brutix and the Navy Drake. The drake is useless after the HML nerf, and the brutix is possibly playable with rails. however going rails, both the thorax and diemos provide much nicer platforms. Both are by a large margin faster.

The MMJD Does nothing to address this projection issue. Blinking 100K away is far away from the normal solo / small gang engagement range of 20/40K.


Now lets discuss the second part of that bolded statement is the use of MMJD's to provide 'interesting game play'. Again I would like to ask for some clarification to this statement. What exactly are you envisioning with MMJDs? A CBC is certainly not going to be catching a kiting ship with one, as most kiting ships are far withing 100K. Considering that no CBC can target out to 100K with base lockrange, even if you would warp ontop of a kiting ship- the chance that you could scram web it, after landing and locking is very low.

Are you envisioning CBC's jumping on top of sniper ships? Again if a ship is around 100+K Away, and is indeed a sniper they are again going to be hot aligned. The second the CBC lands close to them, they will be hitting warp. So the CBC would again lose out on a kill.

From what I have seen fighting against MJD battlships- the MJD is used in only one fashion- a GTFO button. It doesn't add any interesting game play, nor does it add thrilling choices, and it certainly doesn't add any offensive capability. What happens is the following.

1. Engage, battleships with kiting / longpoing small gang.
2. BS MJD and warps out in low armor.
3. Say, **** OUTPLAYED on team speak
4. ???????

CBC's need a rework, no doubt. However they need something more than this gimmicky MMJD mod. EVE deserves better, and there are many, many other more relevant ways of increasing the use of CBC's with out making long pointing, and small gang that much more difficult. Giving 48+ Ships the ability to have a GTFO button is not adding conflict or fun to EVE, it is removing it.

No.

CBC's do less DPS and have less tanks than BS
CBC"s have less projection and less speed than cruisers

There is no situation in which you want to have the CBC. You either take a crusier / ABC or a BS

What killed the cane and the drake of old, were not the nerfs. It was the introduction of ABC's and nothing more. ABC's killed the CBC's.

As for the speed increase- you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you made the CBCs faster, and changed nothing else, they would still be ****. ABC's do more DPS and project better, and the crusiers are easily faster. Nanod / linked / snaked Cruisers are going 4K+ A second. My vagabond heats close to 6K. No where did I say that a cane should be anywhere near that. Howver a BC going around 2K is unplayable in the current meta, matched with its **** poor projection and DPS- its not a ship worth flying.

Lastly, kiting is the only valid small gang / solo strategy.

With the advent of blobbing, risk aversiveness, EVM, and easy to get T1 logi- running a brawling fleet into enemy territory where they outnumber you in people, and ability to reship- is a really bad idea. News at 11.

Brawling is too risky of a strategy to use within the playerbase of Eve.

99% of people are horrible at this game, and simply don't understand PvP or any of the nuances. So instead they just spout off bullshit regarding their poorly conceived notion of kiting, through thier ill conceived lens of poorly misunderstood game mechanics, and an attitude of HTFU mixed in with their air of self conceived superiority / knowledge. People kind of like you, need to spend more time reading and listening. And less time at their keyboards vomiting words onto the page.

How are you still not getting this? "adjust your gang setup"
I normally fly solo or in a pair, there is no reasonable adjustment I can make to include a scram while maintaining anything like the same utility I currently have. It's a colossal nerf.

No matter how many times you or people like you write "why not just include scram tackle in your blob" it won't ever be relevant to the solo/smallgang community.