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[Kronos] Medium Micro Jump Drives

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#481 - 2014-05-19 12:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Gregor Parud wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people


And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle?


Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds.


you're again evading the main point, good.

Also, nothing will change in that scenario other than said BC gimping himself even more due to wasting a mid slot and fitting. I fail to see the problem?


You are right, in that one scenario of a battlecruiser jumping into an inty swarm, this will not save him. Neither will stabs, ecm, or anything else.

You seem to be confused. I suggest reading the arguments being made against the module, instead of making up your own.

I have some errands to run, so while I am gone, you shoud read through the thread so you can stop constructing straw men.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#482 - 2014-05-19 12:54:57 UTC
Faltzs wrote:
The one of the main reason alot of 0.0 alliance stopped using battlecruisers in fleets is becuase of bombs particulary agaisnt the Attack Battlecrsuiers. How about addressing bombs before adding a new module. (yes mjd bc would help but it opens up more room for sillyness rather than game balance).

But if they probably going ot be in game anyway, the cool down should be greater than that of larger version, 5-6mins atleast.


does anyone sensible actually think there's anything wrong with bombs, other than the fact that it's mostly risk-free for the bombers?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#483 - 2014-05-19 12:56:37 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
[Maybe in your game, where you orbit an anchor and its either you have enough logi or you dont, but there are viable game play styles where manual piloting and fast decision making determine fights, rather than who has the most people


And now you're starting to change the subject, which generally is another bad sign of realising you're losing the argument. "who has the most people" has nothing to do with the MMJD, at all. In fact it's the other way round; it allows a BC to get away from a horde of [insert kiting ships but probably crows], surely you'd enjoy other ships than just yours being able to get away from trouble they don't want to handle?


Last 3 interceptor gangs I fought all had scrams. A bc isnt getting away from them. Its also not killing them since the gangs had a sentinel and another 5 or 6 tds.


you're again evading the main point, good.

Also, nothing will change in that scenario other than said BC gimping himself even more due to wasting a mid slot and fitting. I fail to see the problem?


You are right, in that one scenario of a battlecruiser jumping into an inty swarm, this will not save him. Neither will stabs, ecm, or anything else.

You seem to be confused. I suggest reading the arguments being made against the module, instead of making up your own.

I have some errands to run, so while I am gone, you shoud read through the thread so you can stop constructing straw men.


When you find some factual and reasonable arguments feel free to point them out to me. So far all I see is "waaah, my kiting back bone, I might lose a BC kill".
ZecsMarquis
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#484 - 2014-05-19 13:03:52 UTC
Osant wrote:
Dear CCP Fozzie, what about counter-measures? AFAIK when MJD (large version) was just introduced CCP had an idea to deal with it using Mobile MJD Disruptors. But currently we have only one thing - Warp Scrambler and this is not enough ofc.

So my proposal as counter-measures (just a list of different variations):

  • New mobile structure - Mobile MJD Disruptor (one size, T1/T2/Faction, radius as Large Mobile Warp Disruptor, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump, also can't be anchored in activation range of Mobile Microjump structure)
  • New probe for Interdiction Sphere Launcher - *%name%* Disrupt Probe (radius/volume as Warp Disrupt Probe, affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)
  • New script for Heavy Interdictors - Focused *%name%* Disruption (and again affects only MJD ability and doesn't prevent usual warp or jump)



I already proposed every single one of these ideas. Thanks for the +1
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#485 - 2014-05-19 13:25:17 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Kagura Nikon wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Johann Rascali wrote:
I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it.



issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3.

That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3.



I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range.

35k EHP, 2117 m/s

Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle.



So you realize that a player witha BRAIN will click align to a place, overheat MWD while the MDJ spolls up? Movign basically as fast as your caracal? And that means your caracal will take more time to get within 9 km?

Stop witht he spreadsheet thinking. Battleships were easier to catch, but BC will be nearly impossible at a regional gate when you are alone and quite hard if you are unlucky at the gate jump positioning.



So now they have the MWD and the MJD and are almost as fast as a cruiser? Just how many slots do you think these BCs have? A HAM drake is what, 1000m/s (lil' more with swapping a BCU for nano) before heat? So the caracal is twice as fast. You'd have to be REALLY unlucky to not catch it.

Also, that was a versatile caracal, if you REALLY have OCD about a BC never escaping, buy something faster and dedicate it to the role, they'll never escape.

Oh, wait. You're still narked about being alone and at a specific gate type Roll

I suggest you stop with the "in this specific set of contrived circumstance, they will escape" e.g. alone, in a slow cruiser at a giant gate then maybe the prey slips past.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#486 - 2014-05-19 13:28:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Johann Rascali wrote:
I know this is absolute madness, but you could slap an AB on a scram Enyo to bricktackle a MMJDBC while also heaving a decent amount of DPS at it.



issue is. Only some ships are fast enough to go 25 km from one side of gate jump ito scram rnge to tackle a MDJ ship before it gets out. THese ships usually are too weak to fight a Battleship or BC. or they are a T3.

That funnels the small scale PVP even more into T3.



I posted that a caracal before that can do it no problems and would almost certainly survive long enough for the slower ships to get into range.

35k EHP, 2117 m/s

Sure, it won't kill it alone, but it's there for tackle.



So you realize that a player witha BRAIN will click align to a place, overheat MWD while the MDJ spolls up? Movign basically as fast as your caracal? And that means your caracal will take more time to get within 9 km?

Stop witht he spreadsheet thinking. Battleships were easier to catch, but BC will be nearly impossible at a regional gate when you are alone and quite hard if you are unlucky at the gate jump positioning.



So now they have the MWD and the MJD and are almost as fast as a cruiser? Just how many slots do you think these BCs have? A HAM drake is what, 1000m/s before heat? So the caracal is twice as fast. You'd have to be REALLY unlucky to not catch it.

Also, that was a versatile caracal, if you REALLY have OCD about a BC never escaping, buy something faster and dedicate it to the role, they'll never escape.

Oh, wait. You're still narked about being alone and at a specific gate type Roll

I suggest you stop with the "in this specific set of contrived circumstance, they will escape" e.g. alone, in a slow cruiser at a giant gate then maybe the prey slips past.



That Caracal will die though.

Not that i give a **** about how easy it is to gatecamp. I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2014-05-19 13:32:44 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
That Caracal will die though.

Not that i give a **** about how easy it is to gatecamp. I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's



Perhaps, perhaps not. Too many variables to be certain.

No arguments from me about the ABCs being a serious question mark here. Generic BC/cmd ships I'm largely ok with to try out.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#488 - 2014-05-19 13:37:02 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
...


When you find some factual and reasonable arguments feel free to point them out to me. So far all I see is "waaah, my kiting back bone, I might lose a BC kill".


Fact: Single point wont work.
Fact: Scram is essential.
Fact: Playing the brawling game only from now on.
Fact: Kiting disappears, whats the point of a single point, a scram is a guarantee?
Fact: Targets you locate in gated/beaconed anoms will be 100k off .. its now expected with a BS, 48 ships now in total.

Likely: The total end of Minmatar. Speed and kiting was their forte. Brawling with crap tanks aint fun.
Likely: Tanky closein blaster fits FTW.
Likely: Lasers are pointless. Cant track for anything upclose. Keeping range is losing your target.
Likely: The brawler Proteus with longer scram and rails will take off, it has already.
Likely: Prices of faction/deadspace scrams will rise dramatically (its happening now). Faction long points down the pan.

Sadly, if you are too dumb to think these up - took me 2 minutes - then try interpreting the spew of vitriol from some as a legitimate issue of bewilderment.

Its a 'run away run away' for nullsec bears who dont like getting bombed. Dare I say CFC FTW.

As stated. One of the worst ideas I have seen in eve.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#489 - 2014-05-19 13:38:01 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I'm more concerned with twats in uncatchable arty nado's

I highly doubt ABC will get the MMJD
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#490 - 2014-05-19 13:42:29 UTC
Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#491 - 2014-05-19 13:50:30 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Just adding my voice to the haters. Seems to me that it just makes it too easy to get out of fights. It also trivializes the long point, the hics and dictors. As a low sec dweller, much of the combat starts on gates, basically this acts as a nerf on lowsec combat - getting in range fast enough to apply a scram is not going to be easy or fun. At the very least - it should be made so that two long points acts as a functional scram (since its two points of disruption) and the hic infinity point should be made to work again to stop the mjd.


+1

It is doubly true since fast tackle - inties, frigates - don't mix well with gate guns. Because of that, there is effectively no counter to this module that works in lowsec.


absolutely - lowsec just got boosted with the changes to gate guns and now its taking a major step backwards with small grps and solos really taking a hard shot to the nuts.



Why because you can no longer perma-tackle with your insert long point, snaked, and/or boosted insert annoying frig here against a brawler? Shame on you. No one is stopping you from committing to a fight like a brawler has to. Now the brawler has the same ability to disengage from the kiter when he knows he can't catch him.

EDIT: p.s. Bring a scram and all of your problems are solved. It's not like every ship in game minus a BS is faster than a BC or CS....


Last I checked, frigs get blapped off gates from the gate guns. Given the size of many gates, you basically just not going to get tackle without specialized ships and bringing all the necessary ships plus dps, is just not reasonable to ask of solo/small grrps. As far as the issue of brawlers v. kiters - so now kiters have to get within scram range- which means they are in web range - which means brawlers are op? If the fight is outside of scram range - every bc that is smart enough to fit the mjd gets away everytime the minute the fight turns on them unless they are alpha'ed off the field? How is this smart/balanced?

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#492 - 2014-05-19 13:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****.



Look at it this way; it's a counter to risk averse kiters and gives BC a mobility buff without giving them a general mobility buff because that's what made them OP. If they would give CBC 250m/s more MWD speed it would get silly again, getting in the way of cruisers. With this change CBC still won't be able to catch stuff (and then overpower them), but they can play to their slower, more bulky, strengths; forcing ppl into a brawl if they want to catch it. Because it's so specialised and BC still having mobility issues (amongst other things) I doubt it'll ever become a meta and all you'll see is solo or small gang BC going brawl.

This is all assuming ABC won't get them, if that makes it through the CSM and Fozzie himself I'd be highly disappointed in both.



And then there's the other thing I doubt people have thought about... When gang links change to grid only it gives the booster ships a bit of a breather, so this change is a clear indication grid only links are upon us. But lets keep that quiet for now, wouldn't want to mess up the character bazaar too much hehe.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#493 - 2014-05-19 14:02:58 UTC
Why is it so hard for these gate campers to set up on grid bookmarks to pre warp to to get them close to the place the BC will land before it jumps.

Personally; I would setup BM's 200km above, below, front back and sides. I would then warp to the one I thought would be closest when I see them spool up the MJD. I would also have bubbles setup at 100km range from the gate in the celestial align points to catch them trying to MJD-Warp. This way I should always catch them. Then I have a whole 3 minutes to kill/call fro reinforcements whilst pointing them from long point range.

Or does this sound like too much effort?

you know... Proper Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents **** Poor Performance
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2014-05-19 14:04:03 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Well i also rather dislike essentially making BC's immune to long points.. I don't really see the value in that. The game doesn't really need more ways you can be a risk adverse ****.


Well, they are giving up things to fit it.

I wonder....if the module was visible on the ship in space...you'd know what you were dealing with and could act accordingly.

That said I quite like the idea of people assuming a BC is brawler fit and trying to close not knowing if they really are Pirate
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#495 - 2014-05-19 14:33:31 UTC
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#496 - 2014-05-19 14:37:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.


How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this?

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#497 - 2014-05-19 14:39:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.


:)
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#498 - 2014-05-19 14:43:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.

That (and the deepspace transports) seemed like the only legitimate usage of the modules. Combat battlecruisers can't even really reach out and touch past 100km without great difficulty; the only use would be to provide a very strong immunity to tackle and intervention for PVE battlecruisers, just another step towards a perfect PVE world where nobody has to interact with anybody else if they don't want to.

I strongly urge you to reconsider the module entirely, perhaps restricting it to deepspace transports alone if not putting off the whole idea. MJD is a cool mechanic, it's new and interesting, and it's not necessarily good in proliferation.

Need I also mention the promised mitigating mechanics, anti-jump bubbles, were never implemented. Maybe if interdictor bubbles and scripts were provided that could put up anti-MJD bubbles in any space this would be OK, but if you do that why even have the module in the first place?

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#499 - 2014-05-19 14:47:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.


any thoughts on my ABC to T2 .. and make half of the CBC's into ABC's?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2014-05-19 14:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the continued feedback.

We're going to remove Attack Battlecruisers from the list of ships that can use this module in the first iteration, since there are some legitimate concerns with how this would interact with ABCs in small gang combat.


How about returning functionality to the hic infinity point and giving dictors some sort of specialized probe to balance this?



I think that dictors (not HIC's) should be able to fit a "special" 24km warp disruptor that shuts off MJD's (and maybe MWD's) which would give these ships some use outside of bubbling and null sec

I mean.... if people are developing this technology it would stand to reason that people would be developing a countermeasure