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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#161 - 2014-05-06 19:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Angsty Teenager
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade


Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't done much of anything, I was born today.

I get where you're coming from, and why you see this as negative. But at worst it's inconvenient. You can still build the same intel with watch list, it just won't be cached for you.


No I can't. How do I make a watchlist if I don't know when they log in? What if they log in when I am asleep. I cannot watch a wormhole which could potentially just be empty 24/7, the NPC kills api tells me when they will most likely be around, so i can add them to watch list. I already do my own intel gathering, I add many people to my watchlist, I watch their POS, I GATHER INTEL, but I don't just jump into holes with poses that are active hoping people in these holes are actually active, this is folly. I intel gather when there is actually intel to gather, otherwise it's a waste of my time.
Def Monk
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#162 - 2014-05-06 19:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Def Monk
Major Ream wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.


Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills?


Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways.



Actually, maybe you could?
Just alter the killmails to say "Unknown Space" instead of J###### for the system.


ofc I have no idea how deep one has to go into the Rabbit Hole of Eve code to make this happen.

Don't even have to. From a programmer's perspective, getting that information is a matter of requesting the right systems (it's not hard to find a complete list of wspace name, in fact, the API includes it) or filtering the ones you don't want (which is also simple, since identifying names with J###### is also very easy).

Edit: I may have misunderstood. This would be an interesting way to hide who gets killed where, and also support this idea. My previous post on page #6 outlines why I think it should wait until other changes are made first, though.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#163 - 2014-05-06 19:22:37 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:
these guys run sites at 22:00ish

nah that's an hour later than i'd like, roll it.

...comrade


Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I haven't done much of anything, I was born today.

I get where you're coming from, and why you see this as negative. But at worst it's inconvenient. You can still build the same intel with watch list, it just won't be cached for you.


No I can't. How do I make a watchlist if I don't know when they log in? What if they log in when I am asleep. I cannot watch a wormhole which could potentially just be empty 24/7, the NPC kills api tells me when they will most likely be around, so i can add them to watch list. I already do my own intel gathering, I add many people to my watchlist, I watch their POS, I GATHER INTEL, but I don't just jump into holes with poses that are active hoping people in these holes are actually active, this is folly. I intel gather when there is actually intel to gather, otherwise it's a waste of my time.

I know, and thank you. I was hoping you would make my point.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#164 - 2014-05-06 19:23:13 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Andski wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data.


Do you know how many are involved though? No.
Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No.

The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because:
A. Stupids
B. Farming is ridiculously safe
C. Isk efficiency



So clearly the API data isn't that important and you won't need it

Okay

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alundil
Rolled Out
#165 - 2014-05-06 19:24:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Andski wrote:
This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible.

Like local amirite?


not remotely germane to this discussion

Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.



So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.

You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics.

Incorrect. His statement was specific to 'Intel gathering' and the requirement that it should be an involved and active process.

Goose....say hello to the gander.

I'm right behind you
DaOpa
Static Corp
#166 - 2014-05-06 19:24:35 UTC
Remove it from the API,


Then Add in the following:


Deployable buoy that does exactly what your removing but all ingame, which can be destroyed or repacked/reused by players.


Big smile

LP Stores DB - WH List / Systems - Live Streamer
Alundil
Rolled Out
#167 - 2014-05-06 19:27:49 UTC
Andski wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.

So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane.


Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Local in nullsec has absolute fuckall to do with this discussion.

The irony of wormholers complaining about local being effortless intel when they're demanding that CCP leave another form of effortless intel intact because it actually benefits them is golden

Yes because as I said earlier this data is very useful without ever leaving your home system to even open those other connections where this data might be relevant......

/s

This is trend worthy data only that gains relevance once a scout or scouts has been in the system.

I'm right behind you
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2014-05-06 19:28:03 UTC
Two step wrote:
Querns wrote:
Two step wrote:

And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.

All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.

People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.

NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason.


I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money.

I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in.

The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.


So you are saying you have the ability to stop the farmers cold for a week at a time. As though that isn't lost ISK due to risk. You then pivot to the "think of the children" argument and how it won't hurt your profit.

I do agree that risk and reward should be balanced. However, I think the proper approach is to change wormhole mechanics more to introduce more risk. It doesn't seem as though anyone at CCP or in these threads is against changing mechanics.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#169 - 2014-05-06 19:28:47 UTC
MaxDEL wrote:
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Now we say that WH important statistics as well as on other systems K-Space. If you want to remove the CCP API statistics, then remove it from the whole world, to no one was hurt.

Then pilot of Blood Union and EXPLOSION can safely remove EVE Online client and forget about this game.

Wait, what would make BU and QEX remove their EVE client?
Def Monk
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#170 - 2014-05-06 19:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Def Monk
DaOpa wrote:
Remove it from the API,


Then Add in the following:


Deployable buoy that does exactly what your removing but all ingame, which can be destroyed or repacked/reused by players.


Big smile

This sounds awesome. Only PLEASE make it not show up on overview/dscan, but findable via combat probes. Would be neat.

Edit: Also, you can only retrieve the data by going to it, like an ESS.
Napoleon Aldent
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#171 - 2014-05-06 19:30:21 UTC
Querns wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.


Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle?

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.


I was looking for a good signature. Thanks for providing one which will hopefully bring joy and laughter to everyone who sees it.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014
Alundil
Rolled Out
#172 - 2014-05-06 19:30:28 UTC
Andski wrote:
Napoleon Aldent wrote:
Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan.


Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored.

It actually happens quite often. You should know more about your coalition members. Some have even written tools (log even) that broadcast Intel on local pilot movements with no other effort than some pilot online sitting in a station with a client reading the local list.

For real. Fair for all right?

I'm right behind you
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#173 - 2014-05-06 19:31:36 UTC
Andski wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Andski wrote:
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data.


Do you know how many are involved though? No.
Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No.

The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because:
A. Stupids
B. Farming is ridiculously safe
C. Isk efficiency



So clearly the API data isn't that important and you won't need it

Okay


I would bother doing a proper reply but that would require more effort than you put into posting. So I'm just going to make noises.
Moooooooo.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Masaru Sora
Doomheim
#174 - 2014-05-06 19:31:41 UTC
Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2014-05-06 19:33:30 UTC
Masaru Sora wrote:
Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.


Wolfpacks guys

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Def Monk
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#176 - 2014-05-06 19:34:02 UTC
Masaru Sora wrote:
Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.

They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2014-05-06 19:34:42 UTC
MaxDEL wrote:
Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?

Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry?

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
G0hme
Illusion of Flight
#178 - 2014-05-06 19:35:04 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Stuff


I win

Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012

Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013

Got NPC API removed from Wormhole Space.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2014-05-06 19:37:34 UTC
Def Monk wrote:
Masaru Sora wrote:
Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.

They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P


You mean the ones you aren't organized with enough firepower to attack? Then yes, I suppose "can't" is the proper word.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Major Ream
#180 - 2014-05-06 19:38:00 UTC
I think it's interesting, the amount of concern people are expressing about Risk/Reward for (other people's) PVE. Really?

I think it's interesting, the concerns about how hard this would make "PVP". I don't think this would do anything to stop the evictions that cause the epic battles in WSpace. In fact, I don't think it would do anything to the strait-up PVP that occasionally happens on wormholes.
It would be a detriment to chain-rolling gankers. So that's the "PVP" being nerfed then ... killing players already sieged or tackled, shields stripped, getting reps for their armor? Well then, I guess the people who warp another cap into an escalation and then warp out (leaving the original people with more than they can tank) will have to work harder to find places and times to do their thing.

Lets be clear here: I love PVP. But ganking freighers in Niarja, or killing mission runners, or this "Wormhole PVP" people are speaking of - that's not really PVP. PVP is when you man up, face a capable foe and are at a real risk of loosing your ship. Ganking is for punks.

CCP FoxFour, please consider the nature of the "PVP" that Servant's Lord is trying to advocate for.