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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1921 - 2014-05-05 23:10:41 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Masayo Gowa wrote:
i am not sure if this has been mentioned, but CCP Greyscale mentioned looking into changing the cap on capital construction part BPC's to more then 5 runs.

will this include other BPC's ? at the moment the cap on light tech 2 drones are 100, that results in somewhere aroun 16-17 hours per BPC

thats alot of micro managing if you want to build constantly. not to mention if you actualy have a job on the side and only able to restart builds once a day, the result is upwards of a 42% reduction in production capability per month :(




They have already said other things is a 2 way street. If you up the runs, then it takes longer to make the BPC which negatively impacts invention as they use max run BPC.

So....don't expect increased runs for anything that you can invent from



However, increased max runs on T2 things, increases the output from invention, driving down invention costs. Which can be a pretty major change.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1922 - 2014-05-06 00:51:00 UTC
To be honest im rather surprised that none has mentioned that the graph at the beginning of this blog is inherently Flawed and expecting that people will use ME and PE research every day is a really really stupid expectation. Will this change after the patch? I expect that it will occur even less then it does now.

ME / PE : time to research is generally measured in hours and days. capital bpos generally take a month or more to research. I know im not interacting with my ME researching thanatos bpo every day. I mean its in research, one level of ME takes more then a month. Once my bpos are at a ME that i want, why am i continuing to research them? how exactly am i supposed to be interacting with it every day?

Reverse engineering : the small number of items to reverse engineer and the large number of skills needed for this makes it unlikely that im going to be doing this every day, but rather in cyclical batches when the resulting bpc are needed to be manufactured are used up and i need more. i guess i could be overproducing but sometimes subs and hulls just arent in demand and my stock is at a level im comfortable with holding.

Copying. since copy time is so long for many items (specially the ones requiring max runs) i put these in for the most copys i can get at a time, I know im gonna need them later. This is the bottleneck that all research POS are set up to get around.

what interaction am i supposed to be doing with these things?

Manufacture : this happens anytime i get an order that is over my current stock or to maintain my stock levels, occurs every day, and why wouldn't it?

Invention : for small items the invention time is tiny, ammos can be cycled every hour and a half, so i can start this any time im on and not worry about it.

blog wrote:

While we have been adding more professions over the years, the core idea of building stuff remains one of the most popular activities available in our game. You can see below that more than 50,000 characters use manufacturing and invention on a daily basis. Other industry activities, like research ME, PE, copying and reverse engineering only are a fraction of that number.
That is the main reason why, for EVE's summer release, we are going to focus our efforts on industry as a whole.

The foundation of the entire reason you are doing industry changes is wrong.
nor do many of the changes change how this will play out.

You are not introducing more reverse engineered items (this patch)
You are not Shortening ME to the point where it can be interacted with every day
You are not shortening PE to the point where it can be interacted with every day
You are not increasing copying speed to the point where it would be interacted with every day
You are not changing the length of research job scheduling.
You are not balancing the number of research / services in stations across empire space

You are lengthening the time it takes for many BPO to be researched.
You are making it more of a hassle to make POS copys
You are changing all the maths that were understood by the community
You are adding complicated cost scaling with multiple variables

I dont understand how you expect any of the proposed changes to affect the next years graph of those same activities

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1923 - 2014-05-06 00:59:07 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Masayo Gowa wrote:
i am not sure if this has been mentioned, but CCP Greyscale mentioned looking into changing the cap on capital construction part BPC's to more then 5 runs.

will this include other BPC's ? at the moment the cap on light tech 2 drones are 100, that results in somewhere aroun 16-17 hours per BPC

thats alot of micro managing if you want to build constantly. not to mention if you actualy have a job on the side and only able to restart builds once a day, the result is upwards of a 42% reduction in production capability per month :(




They have already said other things is a 2 way street. If you up the runs, then it takes longer to make the BPC which negatively impacts invention as they use max run BPC.

So....don't expect increased runs for anything that you can invent from



However, increased max runs on T2 things, increases the output from invention, driving down invention costs. Which can be a pretty major change.


In a nutshell, this mess is 4 weeks from release, and there are huge questions to be filled, and I think the first iteration is just hitting Sisi now . There is zero, I repeat zero chance, that some new construct with this many new levers and unanswered questions can be sorted out, and more importantly "balanced", in 4 weeks. When I use the word "balanced", I mean in the context of not creating some game breaking exploitable hole like the goons demonstrated with the FW debacle, and also from the context of not just flat out breaking the economy.

I am sure that the goons will be giving tons of input from ceaseless testing on Sisi, which oddly, may be the saving grace. Otherwise, we may end up with runaway inflation.

Just think about this from a very simple perspective. The auction cycle is at least 28 days, since there is a bidding process. Even if CCP did not blow up Sisi after every new build is implemented, a single cycle would not finish before June 3. And who has a clue how the taxing due to congestion will cycle up or down, since once again, there is essentially no large scale testing possible with a stable build.

The whole idea to dump a complete overhaul of industry and hope it all works in 4 weeks in flat out insane.
Alruan Shadowborn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1924 - 2014-05-06 02:44:21 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
I have an idea about "placeholder" POSes. Change the rule to:

A moon may have any number of POSes anchored. But only one can be on-line at any time.

Now if I anchor a POS but do not fuel it, anyone else can still put up theirs and turn it on, making mine useless. If I forget to fuel my POS someone else can take advantage and turn on theirs, and I'm out of luck.



Okay, n00b when it comes to POS mechanics, if a POS is offline in HighSec, can it be destroyed outside of a wardec?

I am assuming not.

If not, then this needs to change, it will force people to fuel their POS or not have one. They can put up a placeholder, but it will still cost them to run.

Plus if they don't then you can have their stuff ( if you find it )
Babbet Bunny
#1925 - 2014-05-06 02:51:45 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
[quote=Steve Ronuken]

In a nutshell, this mess is 4 weeks from release, and there are huge questions to be filled, and I think the first iteration is just hitting Sisi now . There is zero, I repeat zero chance, that some new construct with this many new levers and unanswered questions can be sorted out, and more importantly "balanced", in 4 weeks. When I use the word "balanced", I mean in the context of not creating some game breaking exploitable hole like the goons demonstrated with the FW debacle, and also from the context of not just flat out breaking the economy.


Hmmm.... four weeks...28 days.

Say you have 5 systems in deep null stop production and research now. In 28 days it should register the lowest global usage and be assigned the minimal cost factor.
Week 1 in system 1 out bid everyone on a 10% ME reduction team. Install 7 days worth of production.
Week 2 repeat in system 2
Week 3 system 3
Week 4 system 4
Week 5 system 5
Week 6 system has reset to minimal global effect repeat cycle.

Heck package everything in about three freighters or carriers and just transfer all towers and assembly arrays system to system like a super nomad.

Or just follow the best teams around high sec as they have more effect on production cost than global usage especially if you front load the manufacturing.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1926 - 2014-05-06 07:34:30 UTC
The Original Blog wrote:
After summer, R.A.M. and R.db will instead behave like any other material in the game. However, to keep loss ratios similar we will:

  • Multiply number of R.AM. and R.Db. given for each run of their respective blueprint by 100.
  • Multiply all R.A.M. and R.Db. job requirements by 100, then further multiply that number by the old damage per run percentage.

So I've thought more about this change and dusted off some of my old industry spreadsheets.

You realize that this is a nerf to invention right? I realize that it is extremely slight, but it is there.

With the current implementation, the RAM tools are unaffected by ME which means theyre also unaffected by the adverse ME that comes with invention.

This means that you're increasing RAM tool costs for all invention; is this intended?
Sigras
Conglomo
#1927 - 2014-05-06 08:03:06 UTC
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.

1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...

2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?

I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could

TL;DR
is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)?
TopTrader
Tech3 Company
#1928 - 2014-05-06 10:28:46 UTC
Hey,

since there are like unlimited slots based on the price your are willing to pay i have the following to say:

- as an POS owner, how will the new slot-layot work with the arrays? the arrays has 6 slots but how will this with Kronos? Do we need still the same amount of arrays as before on the POS or what will change? If you dont have clearly answers, when will these changes will be ready to test on singularity?

- in general, with the new slot-system, if you buy your slot late its cost you more and its scale with your item you want to build that means if you build expensive stuff like capitals you are forced to use systems that are not very much known

- is there anything besides the 2% material reduction and the little mobile lab buffs we get as POS owner? Ok 5% material reduction are to much but please we got the fuel costs which the station user dont have and as i understand they have literly the same slotcosts. The lab buffs are good but the most old POS owner already have their stuff well researched. Its right, there is allways new stuff to ME & TE :) but please aware the old POS owner, thanks

Do you have like a timeline when the single industry changes (frome the devbglogs) will be ready to test on singularity? I just can remember from the fanfest that you say that the new UI will be implimented on sisi within this week.


Thats it so far for my first feedback. Looks good and would be fun to see how the flexiblity will develop. Hope to get some answers from you guys.

TopTrader
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#1929 - 2014-05-06 10:42:46 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.

1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...

2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?

I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could

TL;DR
is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)?


If ME changes to 0-10, 2% and 2 levels of ME are like saying Potato, Potatoe - same thing

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#1930 - 2014-05-06 16:39:30 UTC
As the (un)official logistics coordinator for all of EVE, I hereby name the the resulting cyclical migration of players to new systems to engage in industry PvP as -

Gypsy Fleet or just Gypsies.

No, seriously - This simplification will (IMHO) cause the greatest population shift I've seen in a long time (if ever).

How can I compete in the 10% profit margin as an industrial PvPer with build costs cutting significantly into my ability to make ISK? The equipment costs calculated into the mix means that building in a POS out of the way in a low population system just became unprofitable because there is not enough stations in the system to reduce the instillation costs. A 0.48 to 0.55 modifier on the front of a build cycle is significant, especially when we PvP in the margins.

It's going to be pretty bad when the cycles start and we form manufacturing hubs to compensate build costs. The resulting inflation in the game will be significant and hard felt by the player community. This will be similar to the effect of a socialist government regulating a capitalist market - we pass the taxes to the consumer. The result will be a global inflation on all manufactured goods from 10-15% for this "simplification" of industry mechanics.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1931 - 2014-05-06 16:53:18 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.

1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...

2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?

I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could

TL;DR
is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)?


If ME changes to 0-10, 2% and 2 levels of ME are like saying Potato, Potatoe - same thing

except that ME -3 ---> ME -1 is not 2%, its 20%
Masayo Gowa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1932 - 2014-05-06 17:45:43 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Masayo Gowa wrote:
i am not sure if this has been mentioned, but CCP Greyscale mentioned looking into changing the cap on capital construction part BPC's to more then 5 runs.

will this include other BPC's ? at the moment the cap on light tech 2 drones are 100, that results in somewhere aroun 16-17 hours per BPC

thats alot of micro managing if you want to build constantly. not to mention if you actualy have a job on the side and only able to restart builds once a day, the result is upwards of a 42% reduction in production capability per month :(




They have already said other things is a 2 way street. If you up the runs, then it takes longer to make the BPC which negatively impacts invention as they use max run BPC.

So....don't expect increased runs for anything that you can invent from



However, increased max runs on T2 things, increases the output from invention, driving down invention costs. Which can be a pretty major change.



how does increasing the max run on a T2 BPO increase the output from invention ?

you cant reinvent a T2 BPC (cant realy se why you would).
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#1933 - 2014-05-06 17:53:08 UTC
Masayo Gowa wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Masayo Gowa wrote:
i am not sure if this has been mentioned, but CCP Greyscale mentioned looking into changing the cap on capital construction part BPC's to more then 5 runs.

will this include other BPC's ? at the moment the cap on light tech 2 drones are 100, that results in somewhere aroun 16-17 hours per BPC

thats alot of micro managing if you want to build constantly. not to mention if you actualy have a job on the side and only able to restart builds once a day, the result is upwards of a 42% reduction in production capability per month :(




They have already said other things is a 2 way street. If you up the runs, then it takes longer to make the BPC which negatively impacts invention as they use max run BPC.

So....don't expect increased runs for anything that you can invent from



However, increased max runs on T2 things, increases the output from invention, driving down invention costs. Which can be a pretty major change.



how does increasing the max run on a T2 BPO increase the output from invention ?

you cant reinvent a T2 BPC (cant realy se why you would).



Things = BPO's that can be used in inventions

Meaning if something had a max run of 300 it take 4 days to make that copy, now you increase max runs to 1000, now it takes 13 days to make the copy and the T2 BPC is still a 10 run T2 BPC. However, it took 13 days plus invention, where under the old 300 run, in the same time, you could have 3 10 run T2 BPC

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
Masayo Gowa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1934 - 2014-05-06 20:41:29 UTC
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:


Things = BPO's that can be used in inventions

Meaning if something had a max run of 300 it take 4 days to make that copy, now you increase max runs to 1000, now it takes 13 days to make the copy and the T2 BPC is still a 10 run T2 BPC. However, it took 13 days plus invention, where under the old 300 run, in the same time, you could have 3 10 run T2 BPC


yeah sorry let me refrase that.

i am talking about T2 BPO's that you then make a BPC from.
in other words there will never be an issue for things that can be used for invention.

but you will not realy be able to use a T2 fast run BPO to make copy's from (like ammo and drones) since they are max run 100 and without the ability to que them up it becomes a nightmare if you want to build from a POS with BPC's

other option is to build in stations. but noone realy knows what the pricetag is going to be on that
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1935 - 2014-05-06 20:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
fail... misread a post I was responding to... delete out of embarrassment.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1936 - 2014-05-06 21:07:54 UTC
AFK Hauler wrote:
As the (un)official logistics coordinator for all of EVE, I hereby name the the resulting cyclical migration of players to new systems to engage in industry PvP as -

Gypsy Fleet or just Gypsies.

No, seriously - This simplification will (IMHO) cause the greatest population shift I've seen in a long time (if ever).

How can I compete in the 10% profit margin as an industrial PvPer with build costs cutting significantly into my ability to make ISK? The equipment costs calculated into the mix means that building in a POS out of the way in a low population system just became unprofitable because there is not enough stations in the system to reduce the instillation costs. A 0.48 to 0.55 modifier on the front of a build cycle is significant, especially when we PvP in the margins.

It's going to be pretty bad when the cycles start and we form manufacturing hubs to compensate build costs. The resulting inflation in the game will be significant and hard felt by the player community. This will be similar to the effect of a socialist government regulating a capitalist market - we pass the taxes to the consumer. The result will be a global inflation on all manufactured goods from 10-15% for this "simplification" of industry mechanics.



It is not 55% of total cost of manufacturing, or even 5%.

Your out of the way high sec system may have a base cost of 1% of produced goods and no modification for facilities. Nonni may have 12% base and dropped ti 6% for its 20 factories.

You are still beating them by 5%. Now, of course, you have to pay the fuel. Assuming 100 million ISK a month, you have to turn 2 billion a month in goods for the 5% savings to pay the fuel bill... then comes the risk, hassle, etc associated with POS BUT, then comes the advantage of being able to do other things at the POS like.... ummm... Well, since research at station is likely to be 2% of 7% or .14% of one item produced by the BPO... well, not worth any risk to put at a POS. So, I guess, the occasional refine or compress job.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1937 - 2014-05-06 21:09:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.

1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...

2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?

I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could

TL;DR
is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)?


If ME changes to 0-10, 2% and 2 levels of ME are like saying Potato, Potatoe - same thing

except that ME -3 ---> ME -1 is not 2%, its 20%


Except that ME-3 will be ME -30 after the release, and the 2% ME for being at POS reduces your waste to 28% from 30%.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1938 - 2014-05-06 21:15:54 UTC
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Fozzie just mentioned a goal to have us build named modules as well


Where did he say this?


It was today on the fanfest stream. They were talking about ship changes, and he mentioned they want players to be able to make named meta items in the future.



Which is an excellent reason for
1)Capping the minerals from reprocess.
2) Move toward people building off BPC. Probably have to invent all the named BPC from M0 BPO.
3) Concern for how datacores come from R&D agents.
4) Removing hard cap on slots as we'll be building a lot more if we're not competing with rat drop (too bad they designed such a horrid means of removing the hard cap... Solar system wide historic usage rather than jobs currently running in a facility as the bases of the cost scaling? What were they thinking?).
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1939 - 2014-05-06 21:41:19 UTC
Masayo Gowa wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
Masayo Gowa wrote:
i am not sure if this has been mentioned, but CCP Greyscale mentioned looking into changing the cap on capital construction part BPC's to more then 5 runs.

will this include other BPC's ? at the moment the cap on light tech 2 drones are 100, that results in somewhere aroun 16-17 hours per BPC

thats alot of micro managing if you want to build constantly. not to mention if you actualy have a job on the side and only able to restart builds once a day, the result is upwards of a 42% reduction in production capability per month :(




They have already said other things is a 2 way street. If you up the runs, then it takes longer to make the BPC which negatively impacts invention as they use max run BPC.

So....don't expect increased runs for anything that you can invent from



However, increased max runs on T2 things, increases the output from invention, driving down invention costs. Which can be a pretty major change.



how does increasing the max run on a T2 BPO increase the output from invention ?

you cant reinvent a T2 BPC (cant realy se why you would).




Increasing Max run on T2 BPOs, increases the output from invention, because the number is used in the formula to calculate output runs.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)

(this may be the old formula. The difference isn't huge tbh, just effecting how decryptors apply)

Most T2 modules, amm0 and drones have a max run of 100, leading to an invented run of 10 (with a max run copy)
T2 Ships and rigs have a max run of 10, leading to a invented run of 1 regardless of input runs. (excluding decryptors)

Increase those numbers by at least 10, and you add runs to the output of a max run invention job.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Khan'nikki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1940 - 2014-05-07 03:32:49 UTC
POS DEATH & DESTRUCTION

Congrats on the lifting of Standings for structures in Highsec Space! Score one for small biz.

Now next on the list -- taking care of the Moon Squatters. Folks that anchor and forget.

Here's an idea: Moon Starbases that are not powered up take long term damage (be it NPC pirates, meteorites or just plain bad space mojo) and ultimately die. Their shields go down and structures decay. Maybe they spawn some kind of site that can be salvaged, raided, scanned .. you're the Makers.

.. just make them go away!

This would take care of the windfall that some ppl expect from the 'Can I Haz your lootz' of hacking into abandoned labs and such, while providing more anchorable places.

Thanks for reading!