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Simply brilliant...

hmm, "Building Better Worlds"... did CCP get bought by Weyland-Yutani*? (Alien franchise reference, latter half of thread title is used verbatim in sequel Aliens I'm surprised it took me this long to catch it)

I would suggest to the Devs that this being early in the life cycle of expansion design, now would be a good time to reassess key aspects. It is evident post expansion game play is going to change and most likely not in direction planned.

Just my 2isk

*edit: Kindly was reminded proper spelling of fictional corp, TYVM :)

Seriously?

Manufacturing, inventing, researching and reverse engineering in either a POS or null sec Outpost have significant additional costs over sitting in a hi-sec station (fuel etc for POS and logistics costs for outposts). So somehow, a concord or some other body is now going to oversee everything we do and tax us on it? What about repairs, clone costs and docking fees? Will these all be taxed on outposts too, as currently thy can be set to zero? Oh wait, that would affect PvP and so would be a bad change.

I'm trying to see how industry can work in null sec right now, and am part way through some blogs about it, but to me, these changes are likely to make it even less competitive to manufacture in null sec. Also, you're suggesting that you're removing the time bonus from POS and outpost slots and replacing them with other bonuses? Do you have any idea how this might affect the profitability and output of industry operations? Have you considered this?

Question - did the last CSM actually have anybody that understood industry in Eve beyond what they found in the wreck of the industrial ship they just destroyed?

Wish they would release the missing dec blogs finally finally, so we could get an idea what else changes how things work.


Especially when it comes to "working together as a team". I heard something about a team dev blog, that one would be really important to see...


Cause as it stands right now, they ruined the "owning and using BPOs together through having them locked up" feature. As you cannot lock BPOs on a POS. Would also be horrible to have them locked there while it gets attacked. So there need to be some replacement system asap.

BPO locking was a major, but also very annoying feature (whoever had to lock/unlock hundrets of them knows what i am talking about), when it came to doing research, invention and production together. So far it was no problem to lock them at any station, even if they had no slots at all, as you could use the POS outside the station in the same system.

We either need a way to secure BPOs at a POS, more stations with production/research capability, or increased numbers of bureaus on stations that offer those services. Cause of the following reason:


All the people that used "suboptimal" stations so far cause they had their POS, are now forced to look for stations that have production/research/copy/invention slots. And i bet there are not enough of those out there for all of them.

They removed the bottleneck of available slots, but created a new bottleneck of a lack of available bureaus for corporations, that suddenly need them, as their "we can use the POS even on suboptimal stations" thing is busted. They moved out of the way, went through lots of effort and maintenance costs, to "be undisturbed and make room for others" - and now they get forced to return back to those crowded stations.


I really see a big upcomming problem in available bureaus on such stations after the summer patch - we need more bureau slots at those stations, or more stations that offer those kind of services. Caus i bet there are many corporations out there, that used POS as main production/research/invention points, with BPOs locked at stations that had no services at all. I know that we have been one of those corps, and i bet we are not the only one out there. This change forces us to move, to look for a station that offers those services to us, so we can keep using our BPO collection in the same fashin as so far.


So unless they have some really neat and new nice things up their sleeves for the team dev blog, the coopertive invention and production of Eve will take a strong hit. Especially when it comes to BPO sharing, without them being "stealable".

The designers of this change have it all neatly sewn up with Ruicon's blanket statement of "The Empires are losing their grasp". They can use that line to justify any nerf to high sec they like.

Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?

They do. My corp ran several research POSes. We also did invention, T2 production, and ice refining. All from POSes because only 1 limited-use station per system, and some mongloid from "The Before Times" thought it was cute to put an Amarr Manufacturing station in a system with 20 belts, one of which was ice.

WTB destructible stations.

Personally, I think the scaling costs for POSes should be waived, and the current slot numbers kept. They provide a nice fixed monthly expense alternative to scaling costs, but at a fixed limit to the number of jobs that can be run. Any system is also limited to the number of available moons.

How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.

POSes don't somehow lend their slots to outposts. You have to use their slots the same as anyone else does. POS COULD be used to increase the availability of these slots, but then you have to work out of a POS, with all the attendant hauling and irritation. Why do this when you can just waddle down to highsec, go to a system 1-2 jumps from Jita, and manufacture your little heart out without the possibility of congestion?

1-2 jumps is not an exaggeration, by the way. When I do highsec manufacturing, and the amount I do is definitely very small, I can always find free build slots close to Jita. I don't even bother to scout slots.

There's very few of any slots in null because each region was seeded with only three stations, and you're limited to one station per system.

The only outpost with any number of research lines is the caldari, which was disdained because for 30b you got less slots than you could fit on a pos or two, and it has a terrible station model for docking so it's disliked. As a result most places are heavily minmatar/amarr with only a few caldari thrown in here and there for variety. For a long time outpost upgrades were stupidly expensive so although an upgraded caldari station is great, it would have cost 60-150b back in The Day (when alliances were also poorer) making it a hilariously dumb idea. As a result for years nobody dropped them, more may get dropped now but so many systems have a different outpost now and can never have a second.

When it comes to POS research: you could do it in 0.0, but why bother when you could just do it nearly as well in highsec? And when it comes to manufacturing in a pos: not worth the effort: you had to import all the materials from highsec (which are bulkier than the finished product) so you might as well just build it in empire and import the finished product.

You have some strange ideas about how nullsec works. Nothing in this post is a thing.

POS work exactly like they do in highsec. You get a fuel consumption bonus if you anchor a tower in an area where you have sov, but that's it.

Having to spend 10 figures on an outpost, only to have it require another nine figures in POS fuel costs per month to bring it to parity with a single highsec station (of which there are 4-15 identical stations in the same system) is pretty awful. It's much easier, today, just to stick to highsec.

The proposed changes will help level this particular playing field. It won't do it completely; there are still tradeoffs between the two security zones, but they're actually meaningful and interesting, rather than the whole situation just being a complete wash with a discrete, unyielding answer.

Which is a major limitation for null sec with the current set up. You have 1 outpost and lots of people using that outpost and not much within 4 - 5 jumps then you could see null hitting that 14% alot sooner than in empire where you could have a number of options within 4-5 jumps depending on what you are doing.

And in null when you decide that you want to anchor a tower and you are part of an alliances research/industry efforts then that POS becomes "stealable" by every schlub you grant slot access to.

Conversely in hi sec you could run a one man show for your industry needs. Since you don't have to worry about holding your space it isn't necessary to have 1,000+ pilots around some of whom might also want to do S&I work to help fatten the wallet. With 2-3 accounts and 4-6 alts you can set up a damn nice S&I operation in hi sec without the security headaches one would face in null.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Do you stay in hi sec or move to null. Both, going forward will have advantages and disadvantages.