These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Flay Nardieu
#1641 - 2014-04-24 05:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Flay Nardieu
Takara Mora wrote:


And the new name of the EVE Online Summer 2014 Expansion is:


EVE: Contraction



Simply brilliant...

hmm, "Building Better Worlds"... did CCP get bought by Weyland-Yutani*? (Alien franchise reference, latter half of thread title is used verbatim in sequel Aliens I'm surprised it took me this long to catch it)

I would suggest to the Devs that this being early in the life cycle of expansion design, now would be a good time to reassess key aspects. It is evident post expansion game play is going to change and most likely not in direction planned.

Just my 2isk

*edit: Kindly was reminded proper spelling of fictional corp, TYVM :)
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1642 - 2014-04-24 05:34:12 UTC
Flay Nardieu wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:


And the new name of the EVE Online Summer 2014 Expansion is:


EVE: Contraction



Simply brilliant...

hmm, "Building Better Worlds"... did CCP get bought by Wylan-Yutoni? (Alien franchise reference, latter half of thread title is used verbatim in sequel Aliens I'm surprised it took me this long to catch it)

I would suggest to the Devs that this being early in the life cycle of expansion design, now would be a good time to reassess key aspects. It is evident post expansion game play is going to change and most likely not in direction planned.

Just my 2isk



It is Weyland-Yutani...

sheeesh. Roll
Lorna Sicling
Cosmic Monsters
Escape Velocity.
#1643 - 2014-04-24 07:23:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
penifSMASH wrote:
How will cost scaling affect industry in conquerable stations? Will there be unlimited manufacturing/research/etc slots like in npc stations? If so will the station owner still be able to set costs of running jobs

Grarr Dexx wrote:
Will there be fees for building in 0.0 or can they just set them all to 0? Is there going to be any point to building anything outside of 0.0?


The cost scaling will affect all build/research locations, including conquerable stations and outposts. All slot limitations are being removed everywhere in EVE, and locations that formerly had slot bonuses will receive other bonuses instead. More info on that will be in future blogs.

Station owners will be able to set part of the cost of running jobs (in the form of taxes), but other parts of the cost will be out of the owner's control. Costs will not ever be able to be set to zero. Again, more info on this will be available in the upcoming blogs.


Seriously?

Manufacturing, inventing, researching and reverse engineering in either a POS or null sec Outpost have significant additional costs over sitting in a hi-sec station (fuel etc for POS and logistics costs for outposts). So somehow, a concord or some other body is now going to oversee everything we do and tax us on it? What about repairs, clone costs and docking fees? Will these all be taxed on outposts too, as currently thy can be set to zero? Oh wait, that would affect PvP and so would be a bad change.

I'm trying to see how industry can work in null sec right now, and am part way through some blogs about it, but to me, these changes are likely to make it even less competitive to manufacture in null sec. Also, you're suggesting that you're removing the time bonus from POS and outpost slots and replacing them with other bonuses? Do you have any idea how this might affect the profitability and output of industry operations? Have you considered this?

Question - did the last CSM actually have anybody that understood industry in Eve beyond what they found in the wreck of the industrial ship they just destroyed?

Industrialist - currently renting in null sec.

Writer of the blog "A Scientist's Life in Eve" - proud member of the Eve Blog Pack

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1644 - 2014-04-24 08:44:56 UTC
There seem to be 3 groups in this discussion, hisec players who at least have a strong expectation that they will lose out in summer, the null folks who are fighting for this change and will most likely benefit from it, and those in the middle who will wait and see what the changes bring then adapt to them and/or work around them.

In terms of CSM meetings it seems that null sec regions are well represented, who represented hisec and losec interests with regards to these changes?. Surely those people should now be explaining the rationale behind these changes to address the lack of information we have at the moment. Obviously we need to see what the rest of the blogs bring, but allowing such rampant speculation without some kind of balancing input is only bad.
Hexatron Ormand
Aperture Space
WYNX
#1645 - 2014-04-24 10:00:59 UTC
Wish they would release the missing dec blogs finally finally, so we could get an idea what else changes how things work.


Especially when it comes to "working together as a team". I heard something about a team dev blog, that one would be really important to see...


Cause as it stands right now, they ruined the "owning and using BPOs together through having them locked up" feature. As you cannot lock BPOs on a POS. Would also be horrible to have them locked there while it gets attacked. So there need to be some replacement system asap.

BPO locking was a major, but also very annoying feature (whoever had to lock/unlock hundrets of them knows what i am talking about), when it came to doing research, invention and production together. So far it was no problem to lock them at any station, even if they had no slots at all, as you could use the POS outside the station in the same system.

We either need a way to secure BPOs at a POS, more stations with production/research capability, or increased numbers of bureaus on stations that offer those services. Cause of the following reason:


All the people that used "suboptimal" stations so far cause they had their POS, are now forced to look for stations that have production/research/copy/invention slots. And i bet there are not enough of those out there for all of them.

They removed the bottleneck of available slots, but created a new bottleneck of a lack of available bureaus for corporations, that suddenly need them, as their "we can use the POS even on suboptimal stations" thing is busted. They moved out of the way, went through lots of effort and maintenance costs, to "be undisturbed and make room for others" - and now they get forced to return back to those crowded stations.


I really see a big upcomming problem in available bureaus on such stations after the summer patch - we need more bureau slots at those stations, or more stations that offer those kind of services. Caus i bet there are many corporations out there, that used POS as main production/research/invention points, with BPOs locked at stations that had no services at all. I know that we have been one of those corps, and i bet we are not the only one out there. This change forces us to move, to look for a station that offers those services to us, so we can keep using our BPO collection in the same fashin as so far.


So unless they have some really neat and new nice things up their sleeves for the team dev blog, the coopertive invention and production of Eve will take a strong hit. Especially when it comes to BPO sharing, without them being "stealable".
Nlex
Domini Canium
#1646 - 2014-04-24 11:26:12 UTC
This thing seems to have been forgotten in heated arguments, so I want to remind people about it.
To legally anchor POS in sov space you need to have high standings with sov holder. NPC empires are sov holders. Why does this requirements goes missing for them?
If CCP is so concerned about "legally" part, make players able to put up POSes anywhere even with requirements not met, but have them become free targets after a certain time, linked to system's security status. Or have them being shot down by Empire Navy/CONCORD.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1647 - 2014-04-24 12:22:41 UTC
Nlex wrote:
This thing seems to have been forgotten in heated arguments, so I want to remind people about it.
To legally anchor POS in sov space you need to have high standings with sov holder. NPC empires are sov holders. Why does this requirements goes missing for them?
If CCP is so concerned about "legally" part, make players able to put up POSes anywhere even with requirements not met, but have them become free targets after a certain time, linked to system's security status. Or have them being shot down by Empire Navy/CONCORD.


The designers of this change have it all neatly sewn up with Ruicon's blanket statement of "The Empires are losing their grasp". They can use that line to justify any nerf to high sec they like.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#1648 - 2014-04-24 12:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: asteroidjas
CCP Ytterbiumlet wrote:
just say you’ll be able to get all the information you need from a single window, without excessive mouse clicks

I remember hearing this before....oh yeah, the very well thought-out and perfectly-implemented Unified Inventory that had to be instantly changed to allow more than ONE WINDOW for most use-case scenarios.

Nothing could possibly go wrong with the same idea this time...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1649 - 2014-04-24 13:21:03 UTC
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#1650 - 2014-04-24 13:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Urziel99
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?


Until recently nullsec outposts had very limited slot capability and were highly specialized. amarr was the manufacturing station, minmatar the refinery, caldari the lab, and gallente was focused on offices. Recent changes have seen improvements in these areas and I suspect slots in these stations will become unlimited, but each station will only get bonuses for what it's best at. Ir. Amarr getting build bonuses, etc.


As to the use of a pos, even large control towers are very easy to knock down in nullsec. This can quickly overshadow the fuel bonus as a risk for the few industrialists that are out there.

Lorna Sicling wrote:
What about repairs, clone costs and docking fees? Will these all be taxed on outposts too, as currently thy can be set to zero? Oh wait, that would affect PvP and so would be a bad change.



Repairs and docking fees can be set to 0, and often are. Clone costs on the other hand are static and do not change, the only difference is that cloning services are available in all sov null conquerable stations and outposts, as opposed to a few in NPC nullsec or empire space.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1651 - 2014-04-24 14:04:40 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?


They do. My corp ran several research POSes. We also did invention, T2 production, and ice refining. All from POSes because only 1 limited-use station per system, and some mongloid from "The Before Times" thought it was cute to put an Amarr Manufacturing station in a system with 20 belts, one of which was ice.

WTB destructible stations.

Personally, I think the scaling costs for POSes should be waived, and the current slot numbers kept. They provide a nice fixed monthly expense alternative to scaling costs, but at a fixed limit to the number of jobs that can be run. Any system is also limited to the number of available moons.

How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1652 - 2014-04-24 14:21:40 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost?


14% of titan value *cough* modest increase *cough*

But yeah, comments like this make me wonder, whether CCP really puts in the effort to properly analyze all the possible use and exploitation cases...
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1653 - 2014-04-24 14:22:22 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?

POSes don't somehow lend their slots to outposts. You have to use their slots the same as anyone else does. POS COULD be used to increase the availability of these slots, but then you have to work out of a POS, with all the attendant hauling and irritation. Why do this when you can just waddle down to highsec, go to a system 1-2 jumps from Jita, and manufacture your little heart out without the possibility of congestion?

1-2 jumps is not an exaggeration, by the way. When I do highsec manufacturing, and the amount I do is definitely very small, I can always find free build slots close to Jita. I don't even bother to scout slots.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1654 - 2014-04-24 14:22:48 UTC
Thanks for the replies, so POS were a viable option but at cost and risk of destruction. Isn't that the risk/reward balance in action though? I thought POS's had bonuses in null compared to lo (and obviously you can't even use many of the modules in high).

In terms of renting moons I assume this is via a POS located at the moon. I'm guessing the renting systems are pretty deep inside whichever null alliance owns them to be safe?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1655 - 2014-04-24 14:23:13 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?

There's very few of any slots in null because each region was seeded with only three stations, and you're limited to one station per system.

The only outpost with any number of research lines is the caldari, which was disdained because for 30b you got less slots than you could fit on a pos or two, and it has a terrible station model for docking so it's disliked. As a result most places are heavily minmatar/amarr with only a few caldari thrown in here and there for variety. For a long time outpost upgrades were stupidly expensive so although an upgraded caldari station is great, it would have cost 60-150b back in The Day (when alliances were also poorer) making it a hilariously dumb idea. As a result for years nobody dropped them, more may get dropped now but so many systems have a different outpost now and can never have a second.

When it comes to POS research: you could do it in 0.0, but why bother when you could just do it nearly as well in highsec? And when it comes to manufacturing in a pos: not worth the effort: you had to import all the materials from highsec (which are bulkier than the finished product) so you might as well just build it in empire and import the finished product.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1656 - 2014-04-24 14:23:23 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Could someone clarify for me why there are so few copy/invention/mfg slots in null? I thought the labs and mfg arrays on POS provided these?

How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.

They certainly could, but one can assume the congestion charges will be tuned such that doing so would be extremely stupid. Moon space for CSAAs is not particularly rare, though, so it won't matter.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1657 - 2014-04-24 14:29:25 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Thanks for the replies, so POS were a viable option but at cost and risk of destruction. Isn't that the risk/reward balance in action though? I thought POS's had bonuses in null compared to lo (and obviously you can't even use many of the modules in high).

In terms of renting moons I assume this is via a POS located at the moon. I'm guessing the renting systems are pretty deep inside whichever null alliance owns them to be safe?

You have some strange ideas about how nullsec works. Nothing in this post is a thing.

POS work exactly like they do in highsec. You get a fuel consumption bonus if you anchor a tower in an area where you have sov, but that's it.

Having to spend 10 figures on an outpost, only to have it require another nine figures in POS fuel costs per month to bring it to parity with a single highsec station (of which there are 4-15 identical stations in the same system) is pretty awful. It's much easier, today, just to stick to highsec.

The proposed changes will help level this particular playing field. It won't do it completely; there are still tradeoffs between the two security zones, but they're actually meaningful and interesting, rather than the whole situation just being a complete wash with a discrete, unyielding answer.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1658 - 2014-04-24 14:32:58 UTC
Soldarius wrote:


How will this new system interact with CSAAs? Can someone put 10 titans in build for only a modest increase in cost? CCP really needs to be on the ball with this change and make sure no fringe cases slip through the cracks.


This is what im wondering too. But that all depends on how they handle the scaling. Will an array that could handle 10 slots befor have mininum scalign cost when you only install 10 or will it start at higher/lower.

if it only has 1 to start off with, does scalign go through the roof instantly when you try to install a second etc?
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#1659 - 2014-04-24 14:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Hexatron Ormand wrote:



So unless they have some really neat and new nice things up their sleeves for the team dev blog, the coopertive invention and production of Eve will take a strong hit. Especially when it comes to BPO sharing, without them being "stealable".


Which is a major limitation for null sec with the current set up. You have 1 outpost and lots of people using that outpost and not much within 4 - 5 jumps then you could see null hitting that 14% alot sooner than in empire where you could have a number of options within 4-5 jumps depending on what you are doing.

And in null when you decide that you want to anchor a tower and you are part of an alliances research/industry efforts then that POS becomes "stealable" by every schlub you grant slot access to.

Conversely in hi sec you could run a one man show for your industry needs. Since you don't have to worry about holding your space it isn't necessary to have 1,000+ pilots around some of whom might also want to do S&I work to help fatten the wallet. With 2-3 accounts and 4-6 alts you can set up a damn nice S&I operation in hi sec without the security headaches one would face in null.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Do you stay in hi sec or move to null. Both, going forward will have advantages and disadvantages.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#1660 - 2014-04-24 14:42:33 UTC
Querns wrote:

You have some strange ideas about how nullsec works. Nothing in this post is a thing.



I only have ideas based on the discussions here and the research via google etc. That's why I'm asking questions now, At some point I'll need to use null one way or another and I'd like to understand it better before I do. The answers given also put other discussions in a better context.