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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1121 - 2014-04-17 10:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Banko Mato
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Unezka Turigah wrote:
...Barriers of entry are more of a themepark trait, not sandbox. There is nothing sandboxy about having to grind through a billion quests to unlock the ability for your character to set up a factory.


Do COSMOS mission and you will have the enough standing to anchor POS in a week or two maximum like I did, so what the hell billion quests you are talking about ? since you don't know nothing about standing please don't contribute to this thread. If you are pulling statements like this out from your ass then don't.


Well, he has a point there.. Everybody should be able to anchor a POS imho, but those with good standings towards the local empire factions or even the NPC corp next door (ehrm.. moon) should benefit from that standing, for example in the way of greatly reduced fuel costs compared to those without said standing. So maybe allow every capsuleer and their clone army to anchor a POS wherever they want, but double default fuel costs and introduce fuel consumtion relative to system sec+standings so that we get the same fuel consumptions for ppl with good standings as we now have.

I think this way the standing grinders remain happy, the ones making their entry into the POS hassle are happy too, but need to pay for it, and the industrialists that make fuel will be even more excited ;)
Steijn
Quay Industries
#1122 - 2014-04-17 11:02:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Querns wrote:
I thought of a potential gotcha: Will POS assembly modules also have their slots removed? Will you be able to, e.g., run an infinite number of ammo jobs from a single ammo assembly array?


Yes, slots are being removed on everything, however, cost scaling will still be applicable to Starbases as well. Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details.


Wait, what?!
So what is my incentive to pay 300 000 000 isk a month for fuel if i still have to pay for production slots????


Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.


There has still not been a satisfactory explanation as to WHY the scaling taxes apply to POS owners. Its okay for you to keep saying wait until the Blog appears, but thats not an answer.

The other changes like BPs having to be in a POS etc. whilst not been popular, are logical and make sense. So do scaling taxes in NPC stations. But to start applying taxes to something which is nothing to do with an NPC corp and is the sole responsibility of a player, just reeks of CCPs desperation to remove ISK from the game.

If it is an ISK sink, surely it makes sense to slow down the source of ISK and not apply silly illogical taxes that most POS owners ive spoken to find ludicrous.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1123 - 2014-04-17 11:03:50 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:

The sand is being drained away from the sandbox. That's all I'm saying. Eve is slowly starting to look like a theme park with no barriers of entry, no cooperation or interaction required to achieve serious results or goals.


Barriers of entry are more of a themepark trait, not sandbox. There is nothing sandboxy about having to grind through a billion quests to unlock the ability for your character to set up a factory.


Do COSMOS mission and you will have the enough standing to anchor POS in a week or two maximum like I did, so what the hell billion quests you are talking about ? since you don't know nothing about standing please don't contribute to this thread. If you are pulling statements like this out from your ass then don't.


The number of quests is actually not terribly important to my point. I was discussing the misuse of the terms themepark and sandbox. Quantity is irrelevant, though "one or two weeks" of terrible coma-inducing boredom is still a bore, and I'm glad people will no longer be forced to suffer through it. Even if you only had to run a single quest to be able to deploy a POS, that would still not be a sandbox-like feature. Sandbox games move away from reliance on scripted content such as quests.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1124 - 2014-04-17 11:11:16 UTC
Steijn wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Querns wrote:
I thought of a potential gotcha: Will POS assembly modules also have their slots removed? Will you be able to, e.g., run an infinite number of ammo jobs from a single ammo assembly array?


Yes, slots are being removed on everything, however, cost scaling will still be applicable to Starbases as well. Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details.


Wait, what?!
So what is my incentive to pay 300 000 000 isk a month for fuel if i still have to pay for production slots????


Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.


There has still not been a satisfactory explanation as to WHY the scaling taxes apply to POS owners. Its okay for you to keep saying wait until the Blog appears, but thats not an answer.

Because slots are disappearing and the new limit on how many jobs you can run is the scaling NPC charges.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1125 - 2014-04-17 11:14:26 UTC
Steijn wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Max Kolonko wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Querns wrote:
I thought of a potential gotcha: Will POS assembly modules also have their slots removed? Will you be able to, e.g., run an infinite number of ammo jobs from a single ammo assembly array?


Yes, slots are being removed on everything, however, cost scaling will still be applicable to Starbases as well. Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details.


Wait, what?!
So what is my incentive to pay 300 000 000 isk a month for fuel if i still have to pay for production slots????


Starbases will have reduced tax cost next to NPC station, and mobile labs / assembly array will have more efficient ME / PE lines.


There has still not been a satisfactory explanation as to WHY the scaling taxes apply to POS owners. Its okay for you to keep saying wait until the Blog appears, but thats not an answer.

The other changes like BPs having to be in a POS etc. whilst not been popular, are logical and make sense. So do scaling taxes in NPC stations. But to start applying taxes to something which is nothing to do with an NPC corp and is the sole responsibility of a player, just reeks of CCPs desperation to remove ISK from the game.

If it is an ISK sink, surely it makes sense to slow down the source of ISK and not apply silly illogical taxes that most POS owners ive spoken to find ludicrous.


First and foremost it's a game mechanic and provides an ISK sink. Period. If you desperately need an in-lore answer, instead of licking your way up the Empire's asses, you can now bribe them to allow a POS in any space.

There's your answer.

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Steijn
Quay Industries
#1126 - 2014-04-17 11:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Steijn
TigerXtrm wrote:
First and foremost it's a game mechanic and provides an ISK sink. Period. If you desperately need an in-lore answer, instead of licking your way up the Empire's asses, you can now bribe them to allow a POS in any space.

There's your answer.


so what happens if I put a POS in a WH, who takes the tax, the sleepers? Lol

like i said, its ludicrous and reeks of desperation.

What next? all ships require fuel in order to operate and this fuel is only sold by NPCs? You might say thats crazy, but its more logical than taxing a POS slot.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1127 - 2014-04-17 11:27:08 UTC
Steijn wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
First and foremost it's a game mechanic and provides an ISK sink. Period. If you desperately need an in-lore answer, instead of licking your way up the Empire's asses, you can now bribe them to allow a POS in any space.

There's your answer.


so what happens if I put a POS in a WH, who takes the tax, the sleepers? Lol

like i said, its ludicrous and reeks of desperation.

What next? all ships require fuel in order to operate and this fuel is only sold by NPCs? You might say thats crazy, but its more logical than taxing a POS slot.



You're paying the workers. And for the IP licensing costs to be able to make things, because people have pushed through changes on Empire patent law. And if you don't pay, they'll seize all your ISK, stored in the central banking systems.

There, lore reasons. Happy?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Wildly Inappropriate.
#1128 - 2014-04-17 11:30:37 UTC
Steijn wrote:


There has still not been a satisfactory explanation as to WHY the scaling taxes apply to POS owners. Its okay for you to keep saying wait until the Blog appears, but thats not an answer.


dont see it as a tax but see it as maintance cost. Want to go over the normal amount of slots for an assembly array? sure but its goign to cost you.
Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
#1129 - 2014-04-17 11:32:38 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You're paying the workers. And for the IP licensing costs to be able to make things, because people have pushed through changes on Empire patent law. And if you don't pay, they'll seize all your ISK, stored in the central banking systems.

And if you want more research done at the same time, you need more workers and more equipment, which is expensive since you don't really have the room for it. If you add more slots, you have more room, and the costs go down. Kinda like if you have more people working, you also need to rent more chairs, managers, janitors, etc.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1130 - 2014-04-17 11:41:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
What? Did someone just say scaling taxes apply to POS owners? Really? My manufacturing and research at the POS I'm paying 450m a month in fuel to run... is going to be taxed?

Or do you mean starting a job on the station floor, not at the actual POS?
Lucy Riraille
Taxeva
#1131 - 2014-04-17 11:42:39 UTC
Although I like the announcement that Industry gets an overhaul, which it nedded pretty badly, I am somewhat confused about CCP's masterplan to whip any player who wishes to do some things efficiently into sov nulsec!

This is just a plain bad idea.
We know that CCP just loves nulsec and wants as many players as possible to go there.

BUT

Very few players live in Nulsec because of ****** game mechanics! Poor POS Management, awoxers, afk cloaky neuts,

Now industrial slots in Hisec will become absirdly expensive while Mittens sweethearts will be able to use outpost slots for far less?
Will all the hordes of nulsec industrialists be able to satisfy demand of Hisec?

NO!

Simply put: there are too few ibdustrialists in nulsec. And, as GSF and Mittens officially **** on prodders and miners, this change will have a tremendous impact on EVE ingame economics.

Unfortunately, CCP Management fails to understand that as Nulsec residents are simply a minority of eve players and that the majority of Industry and prodding takes place in Hisec and that this has been successfully so for many years, CCP executives do everything they can to nerf Hisec, the home of the majority of EVE players in a way that hopefully a few thousand industrialists will look at the changes, evaluate them and then throw their BPOs in the trash, quit their accounts and leave EVE for the elder scrolls online.

Ice has become a limited resource, thx to mechanic changes, Fuel prices raised a bit as icemining outside hisec became so profitable that the demand on the market could still b fulfilled.

Now every newbie plaer will be able to put a pos anywhere he likes. Why shouldn't there be any standing needed? At least some effort or at least someone elses effort (POS standing service) was needed to have a POS.
Corps payed rent for offices at stations (ISK DRAIN, good against inflation) so thexy could do research and produciton independently from the limitd availability of slots at stations. People used to laugh at other people who accidentally or deliberately stored their bPos inside a POS.

Why do you change this before putting POS management right?

Why do you want to punish poeple who have spent BILLIONS of ISK in BPOs research time and caring and refuelling of POSses?
In order to get better defense capabilities, will we be able to get starbase defense management as a starter skill? With no number of controllable pos modules perhaps?

Game development in EVE lacks a clear transparent und publicly advertised goal!

On the one hand, CCP removes effort/skill requirements for some things so that new player might have easier access (i.E. T1 industrial revamp and other examples). On the other hand highly specialized chars (time intensive skillings) are hit by the nerf hammer as the activites they trained for years now will be far profitable.

Does CCP wants us all to sit in Nulsec, permagrinding anos for faction and officer loot, making billions of isk? Like all the bot ratters in deklein?

Why does CCP wants to increase the income of all these nulsec RMT, that make hundreds of thousands of
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1132 - 2014-04-17 11:56:29 UTC
Yongtau Naskingar wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You're paying the workers. And for the IP licensing costs to be able to make things, because people have pushed through changes on Empire patent law. And if you don't pay, they'll seize all your ISK, stored in the central banking systems.

And if you want more research done at the same time, you need more workers and more equipment, which is expensive since you don't really have the room for it. If you add more slots, you have more room, and the costs go down. Kinda like if you have more people working, you also need to rent more chairs, managers, janitors, etc.


Or increased maintenance costs on automated systems, just like factories in rl...things aren't magically made from goods, they are processed and that carries inherent overheads no matter where you do it. CCP could model this by making manufacture jobs consume mechanical parts and robotics per run, test cultures, bacteria, Water cooled CPU etc for research runs. This would simply add complexity though (Unless the super whizzy GUI will deal with the nastiness).

People would still complain about the new form of equivalent fuel for research rather than rejoice in having as many slots as they want with the associated cost.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1133 - 2014-04-17 11:59:12 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
What? Did someone just say scaling taxes apply to POS owners? Really? My manufacturing and research at the POS I'm paying 450m a month in fuel to run... is going to be taxed?

Or do you mean starting a job on the station floor, not at the actual POS?


Scaling costs will apply to all, just think of it as overhead on machine refits/repairs/scaling up plant lines etc.
Cheradenine Harper
The Grey Area
#1134 - 2014-04-17 12:19:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Xaniff wrote:

2. I predict there will be even more abandoned POSes out hogging all the spaces next to the moons. There needs to be some mechanic for these to be abandoned and destroyed in a reasonable amount of time after running out of fuel and failing to be maintained (like the secure containers that are lost, whether they hold goods or not).


Yeah, that's a good point, we'll note that one down.


See the Abandoned POS thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=333764&find=unread

http://diaries-of-a-space-noob.blogspot.co.uk

Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1135 - 2014-04-17 12:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
What? Did someone just say scaling taxes apply to POS owners? Really? My manufacturing and research at the POS I'm paying 450m a month in fuel to run... is going to be taxed?

Or do you mean starting a job on the station floor, not at the actual POS?


Scaling costs will apply to all, just think of it as overhead on machine refits/repairs/scaling up plant lines etc.


No. I'm thinking of it as a tax on manufacturing, additional to the existing cost I already incur running a POS and one I cannot escape even with several highly skilled characters. It implies I have to run around all over the place to find the lowest (temporary) manufacturing cost. That might be different to the place where I can get the lowest research cost. All of my stuff gets spread around. I can no longer have a "base of operations" if I care about my costs (which I do). I have to manage it all and it's going to be a gigantic pain in the butt.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1136 - 2014-04-17 12:32:55 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Or increased maintenance costs on automated systems, just like factories in rl...things aren't magically made from goods, they are processed and that carries inherent overheads no matter where you do it. CCP could model this by making manufacture jobs consume mechanical parts and robotics per run, test cultures, bacteria, Water cooled CPU etc for research runs. This would simply add complexity though (Unless the super whizzy GUI will deal with the nastiness).


My factory is completely automated. All of the things necessary to make it run and maintain it are included in the "fuel block". Remember how all of that stuff was combined into a block to make running a POS less of a pain in the butt?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1137 - 2014-04-17 12:38:17 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Or increased maintenance costs on automated systems, just like factories in rl...things aren't magically made from goods, they are processed and that carries inherent overheads no matter where you do it. CCP could model this by making manufacture jobs consume mechanical parts and robotics per run, test cultures, bacteria, Water cooled CPU etc for research runs. This would simply add complexity though (Unless the super whizzy GUI will deal with the nastiness).


My factory is completely automated. All of the things necessary to make it run and maintain it are included in the "fuel block". Remember how all of that stuff was combined into a block to make running a POS less of a pain in the butt?


I was just making an example case for why, but it stands to reason that the more you push the factory the more it'll cost in maintenance overheads. Would you rather this be a tax for simplicity or shipping more fuel blocks which as you say contain all the goodies required for maintenance etc...and as far as I know stations are almost always manned in some way or another. We just don't list crew as it would over-complicate things. A fully automated system will fail at some piont no matter how good it is. The more complexthe system, the more failures. Squishy humans will always be required to a degree
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1138 - 2014-04-17 12:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

I was just making an example case for why, but it stands to reason that the more you push the factory the more it'll cost in maintenance overheads. Would you rather this be a tax for simplicity or shipping more fuel blocks which as you say contain all the goodies required for maintenance etc...and as far as I know stations are almost always manned in some way or another. We just don't list crew as it would over-complicate things. A fully automated system will fail at some piont no matter how good it is. The more complexthe system, the more failures. Squishy humans will always be required to a degree


It was CCP who changed POSs to use the same amount of fuel regardless of which modules you had onlined there, not me. As far as I'm concerned, 28,800 fuel blocks a month on a large POS is already covering everything I can fit on it. If they want to *reduce* my fuel cost if I offline modules, fine I have no problem with that. Otherwise, just piling on even more costs will have a single effect on me as a small business owner: I'll take down the POS and not bother building any more.

Eve industry only interests me insofar as I can (a) manage everything from a single base and (b) make a profit on it that covers the opportunity cost of my time and the amount I've invested into it in terms of BPOs, equipment and skills. And note that I have 6 characters, 5 of whom are involved in it, three of which will become superfluous when I stop.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1139 - 2014-04-17 12:47:09 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

I was just making an example case for why, but it stands to reason that the more you push the factory the more it'll cost in maintenance overheads. Would you rather this be a tax for simplicity or shipping more fuel blocks which as you say contain all the goodies required for maintenance etc...and as far as I know stations are almost always manned in some way or another. We just don't list crew as it would over-complicate things. A fully automated system will fail at some piont no matter how good it is. The more complexthe system, the more failures. Squishy humans will always be required to a degree


It was CCP who changed POSs to use the same amount of fuel regardless of which modules you had onlined there, not me. As far as I'm concerned, 28,800 fuel blocks a month on a large POS is already covering everything I can fit on it. If they want to *reduce* my fuel cost if I offline modules, fine I have no problem with that. Otherwise, just piling on even more costs will have a single effect on me as a small business owner: I'll take down the POS and not bother building any more.


I'm new to POS management and will be setting one up just as soon as I can so I'm thinking CCP expect this will balance out...and less profit is better than no profit so many people will consider quitting then just carry on as is and accept it.. Also I would expect that your POS would still manufacture the same amount after the release as it does now without incurring costs. I *think* the change is that if you stack more jobs onto a lab than its optimal rating it will incur the stacking costs per extra job. This is yet to be made clear in a future blog though.

As a side note I only just earned the standings required to stand up a POS but am not concerned about the time this has taken due to the other benefits from having done so. I have no issue with dropping the standings requirement but would like to see it have some impact in some way on the whole S&I area to benefit those who have gone through the grind.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1140 - 2014-04-17 12:50:59 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

I'm new to POS management and will be setting one up just as soon as I can so I'm thinking CCP expect this will balance out...and less profit is better than no profit so many people will consider quitting then just carry on as is and accept it.. Also I would expect that your POS would still manufacture the same amount after the release as it does now without incurring costs. I *think* the change is that if you stack more jobs onto a lab than its optimal rating it will incur the stacking costs per extra job. This is yet to be made clear in a future blog though.

As a side note I only just earned the standings required to stand up a POS but am not concerned about the time this has taken due to the other benefits from having done so. I have no issue with dropping the standings requirement but would like to see it have some impact in some way on the whole S&I area to benefit those who have gone through the grind.


Well, in the absence of any clarity we surely can't draw any conclusions. Specifically it isn't clear how R&D and manufacturing at POS's is affected by all of this.