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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#781 - 2014-04-22 08:51:16 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
The interesting thing about the history of WHs is that any change to eve, any change at all that has even the slightest, tiniest effect on wormholes tends to makes WH space worse.

It's a case of anything that CCP touches, makes WH space worse. Even if they dont mean to change WH space in any way, it still effects WH space in a negative way. Every suggestion for making WH space better doesn't involve anything new at all, merely UNDOING changes CCP has already made. That speaks volumes.

Now CCP wants to actively, DIRECTLY make changes to WH space.

Yea how about we start small CCP and prove that you can make changes to WH space without making it worse.

And yes, WH peeps might seem like they have no respect for CCP and seem a tad hostile and prone to rejecting many changes but that's merely because they are a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. Also suffering from all those unintended changes and being ignored breeds a level of contempt.

Now you can either leave them alone or put on your big boy pants and do something that will benefit ALL of WH space. I figure you really only have one good shot at this so make it a good one 'k.
True. CCP recently accidentally included the shimmer effect on wormholes when warp is activated to that hole. Upon notification of this 'bug', CCP removed the warp-shimmer effect. Bad move CCP. Watching for activity, whether a warp to a wormhole or looking for a new signature with probes requires time and patience. The most attentive and patient of players are the ones that win, not the opposite. It is called surprise-but*seccs.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#782 - 2014-04-23 11:27:59 UTC
Can we get a dev confirmation that this hilariously stupid idea has been scrapped, and the team behind it has been transferred to other duties?
mechform
#783 - 2014-04-23 17:02:08 UTC
I like the idea of the k162 not popping up on the overlay right away, but still being scannable.

Black Power - Brotha's in space unite!
Kilorion XII
RATEL Initiative
#784 - 2014-04-25 09:36:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kilorion XII
To start off, I think we all accept that any reward to be gained should carry a relative amount of risk to balance the scales.

The automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with all the anomalies as well as crude signature results" was introduced with Odyssey "to give neophyte explorers (of all character ages!) a less disjointed pathway into exploration" (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/sensor-overlay-changes-in-eve-odyssey). In wormholes, this automatic priming and updating of the probe scanner had the unintended side effect of swinging the scale in favour of the reward side of the equation.

I believe that to be successful in any endeavour there are three requisites: knowledge/theory, skill to put such knowledge/theory into practice, and dedication. (Knowledge vs. skill: Anyone can read up and relay on how to replace brake pads, but some will swear away their Saturday afternoon whilst trying to get the job done.) The lack of any of these requisites will drastically reduce any chance at success. Such is the case with denying someone the necessary information gathering tool(s) to detect a potential threat in order to survive. Spamming combat probes or the directional scanner to detect potential threats in the form of ships only, simply does not provide adequate warning in an environment where cloaky tacklers are the norm. The delayed appearance proposal is an attempt to rectify the imbalance in wormholes that was created by Odyssey, but would undeniably be a heavy handed overcorrection that slams the scale down in favour of the risk side of the equation.

Before Odyssey, the only option to detecting new signatures in a timely fashion was by religiously scanning with probes. This required the dedication needed to even the scale between risk and reward.

So how do we balance the scale again whilst giving "neophyte explorers (of all character ages!) a less disjointed pathway into exploration"?

My first proposal is simple. All new signatures remain immediately scanable with probes, but there are no automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with ... crude signature results" in wormholes. "neophyte explorers" only get hints in k-space, not in w-space.

My second proposal is that all new signatures remain immediately scanable with probes, but that the automatic "priming (and updating of) the probe scanner with ... crude signature results" is to be done for everyone in the system only once someone scanned down these signatures. To promote the scanning down of signatures, the first person that scans down a signature may be awarded a finder’s fee by concord or some other NPC entity based on the type of signature and system. For background story purposes, the NPC entity then makes the "crude" info available to all in the system.
Triksterism
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2014-04-26 04:05:07 UTC
This idea seems a bit over thought in my opinion. In a C5/C6 if you are running sites and a sig comes up the aggressing fleet has anywhere from 5 minutes to seconds to find the anom and send a fleet in to engage due to Siege timers. Lower Class wormholes are what they are. You either find an easy target or you find very cautious targets. Either way I don't see this actually changing much for C5/C6 residence for the above stated reason. It really does seem simple to me and no change is really needed.
Quiby San
#786 - 2014-05-02 14:48:55 UTC
Sorry, but after reading 40 sites about this topic my position towards this idea did not change.
Recent changes that affected wormholes made them already pretty bad, especially for people that don't live in corporations with hundreds of players, owning several high class wormholes.

I disapprove the idea.
Thegasp Cupcakes
CareBears Gone Dark
#787 - 2014-05-04 21:51:33 UTC
I can't support this idea. It gives way too much of an advantage to the aggressor. Wormholes already have the ore sites moved from cosmic sigs making mining nearly impossible, and forget about Exhumers. There's also no way to know who is in local, and for how fast you can recloak from a hole, forces the site runners to spam D-scan the whole time.

As stated by others before me, theres no way to counter that system. The aggressor already has the surprise in most cases.

There are a lot of small wormhole corporations that wouldn't be able to take most fleets that would be interested in attacking them at combat sites. The only option is then to run. If you take away the little warning we'd have, we would be slaughtered time and time again.

EvE has always let you choose your fights. Please keep this aspect.

So No, This would be horrible for the wormhole community.
Sum Olgy
Perkone
Caldari State
#788 - 2014-05-05 08:42:39 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:


the moment the fleet jumped trough wh its already too late for defender


Utter rubbish. Wormholes are the end game of risky things to do in Eve. If you treat running an anom in a wormhole in the same way you'd run a Sanctum/Hub etc in a dead end null sec system you deserve everything you get.

I'm not sure the OP suggestion is the way to go. Trying to increase player interaction with dodgy mechanics sounds like a knee jerk reaction instead of a reasoned progressive addition to gameplay.
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#789 - 2014-05-06 11:29:41 UTC
As many others have stated, this idea is not the most optimal solution for the "issue" of signatures appearing automatically on the scanner window.

I also live in WH-space, and have been both in the attacker and the defender roles. I do actively use my D-Scan to check my surroundings, use probes to scan down signatures, etc. Perhaps a ship could enter the system in between my D-Scan sweeps and it would be fair, it's being sneaky as it should. However, not being able to know there's a new connection for some time while the attackers are already coming, without having any other advantage to compensate is not at all fair. I would hate that mechanic, both in the defender and the attacker roles (I'd feel like cheating on the second case).

If the problem is that the Oddyssey scanner inmediatly shows up any sigs without even throwing a probe (which I'll need anyway in order to scan them down), then simply removing that mechanic would be an easy solution.

On the other hand, attackers, defenders and people just looking for PVE benefit from knowing about new signatures in the same way. I would make sure this hasn't changed things much before considering changing anything (some people here have stated they don't feel much of a danger change).
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#790 - 2014-05-09 00:14:07 UTC
is there any update on this? I think one thing we can all agree on was that making K162s at least not show up on the automated scanner forcing probes as a good diea. It brings us back to pre-odyssey which no one can argue was bad.

Of all changes this was the one I was most excited for TBH, and im dissapointed to not here any response. CCP just asked us for our input, and then dead silence.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#791 - 2014-05-09 16:55:52 UTC
Please bear with me while I take a little trip.


And Bob called out and said “Lo… I shall give them that dwell in this place a new, even darker and more dangerous playground with which to pay homage to me. And those that dwell there shall have riches heaped upon them from on high for their diligence and perseverance in this place, but too they shall have much taken for it will be a frightful existence.”

And so the stars shimmered and the first brave souls ventured forth into the pits of hell, learning of their six levels and did so pay sacrifices to Bob so that they may be blessed. Some few did survive and even flourish in those first days, bringing back the spoils of war to the rest of mankind that cowered in their ivory towers.

Those spoils of war were truly prized and shaped by the denizens of Bob’s new playground. It was soon discovered that four delectable flavors could be wrought from the materials seized and those in the ivory towers took notice. These three scoop delights were far better than the one and two scoops that the ivory towers produced. In the passing years these better scoops did sate the desires of the ivory towers and brought much wealth to the denizens that toiled in darkness, never sure when they were being watched by the spreaders of chaos who would, in moments, fall upon them from the dark suns that would appear in the sky above.

So the ivory towers bought the wonderful treats and discovered to their joy that the vanilla three scoop could be doused in chocolate for even greater delight. The null-bears lifted their arms upward in homage and sought out more of this great dessert with which to wage their endless wars. The great clamor of their call for more heartened the masses that toiled in darkness and chaos, and numerous brave new fools ventured forth to make their fortunes. Bob rejoiced, for his playground had many denizens and they paid him tribute with their blood and battles. The epic clarion calls, the frantic rush to arms to defend ones new home resounding from the darkness. All the while more materials were gathered.

But nothing remains static in the paradise of New Eden and other gods grew fickle. The chocolate sauce recipe was changed. Suddenly the taste of that once great Vanilla T3, as it had become known, changed into something less palatable. The riches of Bob’s playground were slightly less sought after and yet those that dwelt there had become even better at extracting those riches.

They gathered together in the darkness and lit it with the fiery glow of engines and explosions. What used to take hours now took mere minutes and fortunes could still be made, but only by those bands that were the biggest and the best. Those in the ivory towers still liked their T3 scoops but other new tastes proliferated, tempting them away while in the darkness nothing changed, there were no new treats to bring to market.

We that live the WH life have but one product and on its fickle nature our fortunes rest. We are a one trick pony. If we are to truly make a new name for ourselves and revitalize the place we love then we must diversify. New uses for the material we gather daily must be found. This must be our new clarion call. For with that diversification, our home will once more grow more populated, and with that population will be more chances to pay homage to Bob through the chaos of death and destruction.

We must explore the technology that the sleepers have amassed at their sites; explore their buildings and bring them back to see what marvels are held within. Perhaps deployable manufacturing facilities might be wrought to put the empires to shame. Perhaps the weapons of the sleepers or their engines might be reverse engineered, bringing us new modules and revitalizing our space. We must engage the one power greater than Bob, CCP, and help them understand that we, the capsuleers that live on the edge, need their help to make the place we live in the greatest of the playgrounds of New Eden.

It is not artificial gimmicks that will bring back the days of old but rather opportunity, for with no opportunity there will be no great fortunes to be had beyond what we the large groups eke out. Those fortunes must be had at the expense of time and patience thus giving opportunity to those that seek to spread their chaos.

This is how we bring PVP and PVE together for the greatest experience in gaming.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#792 - 2014-05-10 01:49:55 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
The interesting thing about the history of WHs is that any change to eve, any change at all that has even the slightest, tiniest effect on wormholes tends to makes WH space worse.

It's a case of anything that CCP touches, makes WH space worse. Even if they dont mean to change WH space in any way, it still effects WH space in a negative way. Every suggestion for making WH space better doesn't involve anything new at all, merely UNDOING changes CCP has already made. That speaks volumes.

Now CCP wants to actively, DIRECTLY make changes to WH space.

Yea how about we start small CCP and prove that you can make changes to WH space without making it worse.

And yes, WH peeps might seem like they have no respect for CCP and seem a tad hostile and prone to rejecting many changes but that's merely because they are a product of the harshest and most difficult (esp form a logistics pov) space to live in. Also suffering from all those unintended changes and being ignored breeds a level of contempt.

Now you can either leave them alone or put on your big boy pants and do something that will benefit ALL of WH space. I figure you really only have one good shot at this so make it a good one 'k.
True. CCP recently accidentally included the shimmer effect on wormholes when warp is activated to that hole. Upon notification of this 'bug', CCP removed the warp-shimmer effect. Bad move CCP. Watching for activity, whether a warp to a wormhole or looking for a new signature with probes requires time and patience. The most attentive and patient of players are the ones that win, not the opposite. It is called surprise-but*seccs.

Oh darn it, ISD Izwal will now lock this thread because I used the word bug (Rule # 15).
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#793 - 2014-05-12 15:11:25 UTC
ExookiZ wrote:
is there any update on this? I think one thing we can all agree on was that making K162s at least not show up on the automated scanner forcing probes as a good diea. It brings us back to pre-odyssey which no one can argue was bad.

Of all changes this was the one I was most excited for TBH, and im dissapointed to not here any response. CCP just asked us for our input, and then dead silence.


I don't agree. However if they wanted to do this I would be willing to compromise. If they want to make sigs not appear on the scanner then I think ore and combat sites should not by 100%. You can still keep the annom pop up on the scanner just not make them IMMEDIATELY warp able to anyone who enters system. That was the trade off CCP gave in the first place when they made ore sites automatically 100% scan strength..
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#794 - 2014-05-14 19:47:33 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
I don't agree. However if they wanted to do this I would be willing to compromise. If they want to make sigs not appear on the scanner then I think ore and combat sites should not by 100%. You can still keep the annom pop up on the scanner just not make them IMMEDIATELY warp able to anyone who enters system. That was the trade off CCP gave in the first place when they made ore sites automatically 100% scan strength..


Make anomalies to signatures to keep PvE risk balanced...I thought I heard it all in the past weeks. And those are the kind of players CCP listens to. What? Have fun scanning not just through 20+ sigs in most black holes, but 50 after that.
Making ore to gravsites again is something most people would probably agree on, but that has never been on the table by CCP.
Ghostnis
Pissed Every Night Including Sundays
#795 - 2014-05-15 10:23:01 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Make anomalies to signatures to keep PvE risk balanced...I thought I heard it all in the past weeks. And those are the kind of players CCP listens to. What? Have fun scanning not just through 20+ sigs in most black holes, but 50 after that.
Making ore to gravsites again is something most people would probably agree on, but that has never been on the table by CCP.


Make them as signals, but these two "special" types reveal more to the probes scanner. They immediately show their type, but they still need a bit more scanning to allow to warp to them. Thus no immediate warp is allowed and no extra scanning is needed if you aren't intrested in them ...
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#796 - 2014-05-15 10:34:19 UTC
I'd like to see this implemented before the wh api gets to it's fixed stage (vs the working as intended right now).

I'm not even in the logon trap market but it's silly "design" (seemingly by potatoes), that will make wormhole space carebear paradise.
There's soo many wormholes with just 20man farmcorps in them.
Atleast bringing back a delayed signature will increase the risk vs reward scale.

Prioritize your decicions CCP.
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#797 - 2014-05-15 10:35:05 UTC
Or just removed the odyssey scanner feature in wormholes.
Stronteim Galardis
Vagrant Consolidation and Liquidation
#798 - 2014-05-16 03:31:18 UTC
I haven't read through this entire thread so this idea might have been mentioned. What about randomly picking up false positive probe results, in wormholes, you would have to narrow the scan to see that it was a false reading. It would require at least one or 2 more probe scans before it is revealed to be a false result, and would occur often enough that people would get tired of hiding out every time a SIG shows up on a probe scan.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#799 - 2014-05-17 00:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
This thread is old! and I am catching up .....
there are two already existing posts that I am 100% on board with

If the idea as presented is maintained, it should also be applied to other dangerous space like null sec as posted here

Slumber wrote:
If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec.
I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.


Now, it is obvious that the cartels will fight this all the way so if this is not doable, this other post is my second best choice.

[
Phoenix Jones wrote:
If your heart is set on this though.. here is how you implement it.

1) The scanner can or cannot go back to the original way, that's up to you.
2) If you want to do this delayed wormhole spawn move, give the players the method of making the wormhole themselves, and make it a deployable that generates wormholes (Yes I know people hate the idea, but you can restrict it in a few ways.

a) Only allow the deployable to work in wormhole space, and the generated wormhole connects to another wormhole (no kspace connections through the generated hole, and this cannot be dropped in kspace to generate wormholes).

b) limit the mass and the jump amount. A meta 1 generator allows only cruiser and below, and has a maximum of 10 to 12 jumps (meaning it can be jumped 12 times total, regardless of mass of ship that jumped it). A meta 2 generator allows battlecruisers and below, and has a maximum of 15 jumps. A meta 3, battleships and 20 jumps. Meta 1's connect to c1 and c2 wormholes, meta 2 connect to c3 and c4 wormholes, meta 3 connect to c5 and c6 wormholes (you can't choose the wormhole type directly, it is random). Note: C1's regardless of the deployable, still has its mass limit (no battleships or above even if it was a meta 3 generator, can pass through the hole).

c) The generator cloaks itself, the wormhole and about 10k surrounding itself (Functions exactly like a mobile scan inhibitor, except it cloaks itself also). This cloak lasts from 10 minutes to 30 minutes. The decay on the wormhole lasts roughly 6 hours to 24 hours (can be balanced as need be).

This does a few things. It allows players an alternate to rolling holes. It Gives them their "gank" chance, it allows people to do intel before being discovered (your 10 to 30 minute window), and it does not f-up the original k162 concepts. In addition, it allows small gangs to function as small gangs as the wormhole itself has a jump limit not based off of mass, but amount of times jumped (So you can bring a gang of 5 people, drop one, jump in, find a target or not, warp farther into his system, drop a second, jump it, and you have a small highway going, and the potential for an actual "roam". After the 10 to 30 minutes, other people can find them, use its highway (even possibly close it behind you), and come after you. You left a "TRAIL" for people to track you.

This addresses this whole new concept by use of a deployable. The farmers are not immune anymore, but they are not totally helpless as there is only so many ships the corp can jump into the system (they can jump enough to return, or commit a large fleet and trap themselves there, and possibly probe themselves out later).

I don't know if this would cause more fights or not, but it would give the hunters a bit of a method to actually "hunt". In other-words, give the player a new method in wormhole space.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Sarah Flinnley
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#800 - 2014-05-19 19:48:31 UTC
I'm still a fan of both immediately spawning both ends of the WH connection when the WH first appears and starting the decay timer at that time.

Reason: If the new sig in system doesn't indicate that a player is warping to the other end of the WH, then the new sig popping up in system doesn't give any intel.

NOTE: This also makes it impossible for anyone to 'close' their wormhole as is currently possible, but I believe unintended.