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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2014-03-25 07:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjurn Akely
Anhenka wrote:


I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?


Significant? What is that in the sandbox context?

Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at flying it.

Perhaps I was reading you wrong.What?
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#522 - 2014-03-25 07:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Anhenka wrote:


I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?


Significant? What is that in the sandbox content?

Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it.

Perhaps I was reading you wrong.What?

There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
But there are not a lot if any large organized PvP corps active enough to distinguish themselves in the WH community as household names. The lower levels simply can't support that many people in one hole, and smaller corps tend to be far less known that larger ones.

From a c5+ standpoint can usually more or less dismiss a c4 or lower corp as a major threat on the basis that they:
A: 98% likely to not have enough active members to pose a threat to a escalation fleet due to lack of people and an inability to bring caps.
B Won't be evicting anyone in c5 space because of a lack of people and capitals.
C Are far less likely to be throwing around the typical pimpfit t3 groups that serve as a force multiplier against less well fit groups.

So less people, no caps, no real threat.

And most groups tend to make their reputations either through frequent larger scale PvP (HK, Sky Fighters, Ragnarok, many others I didn't name), staging evictions of others homes, or by being scary due to ballsy risky moves (BU logoffski traps with Swaglfars).

If you are a c1-4 corp without caps, or a 200 man corp, or begin able to field a 30 man pimpfit t3 fleet, how exactly do you distinguish yourself to stand out from the others?
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2014-03-25 08:04:41 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Anhenka wrote:


I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?


Significant? What is that in the sandbox content?

Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it.

Perhaps I was reading you wrong.What?

There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

-snipped-


Aye, I see your point.

Think is... every Predator preys on what they can kill. With that in mind I find it weird that people are advocating different mechanics for different classes of holes. Targets are targets, and it's no harder to find a capital in a C6 than a Drake in a C1. If anything the capital is easier to find, especially if probes are required. There is no significant change in getting a fleet ready for a C6 bash compared to a C2 one. Right Click-Board is what is needed.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#524 - 2014-03-25 08:22:24 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Anhenka wrote:


I mean, how many c1-4 corps can you actually name as significant?


Significant? What is that in the sandbox content?

Frankly I find your statement a bit elitist. I've come across very skilled and organized people in C1's, and total noobish clowns in c5-6 class holes. The Class of holes mainly dictates what you fly rather than how good you are at fly it.

Perhaps I was reading you wrong.What?

There are plenty of competent people in c1-4. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
But there are not a lot if any large organized PvP corps active enough to distinguish themselves in the WH community as household names. The lower levels simply can't support that many people in one hole, and smaller corps tend to be far less known that larger ones.

From a c5+ standpoint can usually more or less dismiss a c4 or lower corp as a major threat on the basis that they:
A: 98% likely to not have enough active members to pose a threat to a escalation fleet due to lack of people and an inability to bring caps.
B Won't be evicting anyone in c5 space because of a lack of people and capitals.
C Are far less likely to be throwing around the typical pimpfit t3 groups that serve as a force multiplier against less well fit groups.

So less people, no caps, no real threat.

And most groups tend to make their reputations either through frequent larger scale PvP (HK, Sky Fighters, Ragnarok, many others I didn't name), staging evictions of others homes, or by being scary due to ballsy risky moves (BU logoffski traps with Swaglfars).

If you are a c1-4 corp without caps, or a 200 man corp, or begin able to field a 30 man pimpfit t3 fleet, how exactly do you distinguish yourself to stand out from the others ?



Everyone has to start somewhere.
Dismissing people as irrelevant is stupid when in the sandbox 1 guy is enough to bring down your c6 to his knees - have you forgot about meta gaming? Butterfly effect?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

BGed
Machiavellian Empire
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#525 - 2014-03-25 08:23:38 UTC
After reading the majority of the posts in this thread and living in a wormhole for the past year I have come to the conclusion that K162's should not be scanable period.

That way no one knows who is where. Gankers in your system? Be in their hole.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#526 - 2014-03-25 08:26:19 UTC
I want to pose a question regarding the proposed different delay timers. Primarily to CCP Fozzie, but also to the ones suggesting timers.

When you say the delay should be (example):

C1- 1 minute
C2- 2 minutes
,,,
C6- 6 minutes

What do you mean?
Is the C1 timer referring to all holes LEADING TO or GOING FROM the C1? This is highly relevant and interesting to know, agreed?

Thing is....
If it means GOING TO I can see a bleak future for lower class holes. Fleets from C4's (and above via the C4) will swoop down on them like locusts. OK, I exaggerate but I think you can see the problem for the C1 dwellers.

If the timer means delay s holes going to, then the lower class of holes should be more protected, I suppose.

I understand the intent of the proposed changes is to generate more PvP. I also think that (as usual) CCP has a lot more data on the reality than we or at least I do

  • How did the Discovery Scanner changes impact ship losses in ISK).
  • How large a part of the current total ISK lost is in those high class Capital fight? (My gut feeling is Caps is a minor part but http://www.eve-census.com/ lists number of kills, not ISK).


In short: CCP Fozzie - What is the suggested changes supposed to fix? IT's always easier to come up with good ideas if you know what problem to address.
Professional Forum Alt
Doomheim
#527 - 2014-03-25 08:27:02 UTC
-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-


This is a VERY BAD idea.

So you want to remove WH's only intel tools ?
Why are you not removing local in "known" space first ? Number of jumps. people in space, in station and so on?

In WHs, you only chance of knowing (to some extend) what is going on, is to keep a eye on d-scan and number of sigs at all times. Which is not even possible to check both at the same time.
The day where EVE has it's PREFECT intel tools removed from known space - sure - add WH space to that list. Until then, please please spend you time on better issues in the game.


-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-☆-

This is Angelica Everstar's alt
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#528 - 2014-03-25 08:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
I think it would be OK to have the inbound WH (AKA K162) delayed on the sensor overlay but I think it would be stupid to make it not appear for probes. Making the K162 completely undetectable for a while removes all the tools used to acquire intel from the residents. They will practically be sitting ducks waiting for the bullet to hit.
While this may not be a huge problem for large WH entities that can field a farming fleet and still have people on call for escalating if they get jumped, small corps will be hard pressed and very exposed while farming. Come on now, triage/siege lasts for 5 minutes, there is no way you can't hump them if you are half competent even if the residents know you are there.

To those saying that anomalies should be scan-able, BUGGER OFF!!! What, are you nuts? I'm scanning enough as it is now, no need to add more tedious stuff in WHspace.

P.S. Really Fozzie, dungeons? Dungeons, really? Pirate Oh, one more thing, maybe you can press the null guys to find a way todelay local in null, that would be a way bigger improvement for whollers and EVE in general.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#529 - 2014-03-25 08:53:54 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Two step wrote:
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:


What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time

If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you


I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.

My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space.

Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.



I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers).

Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system.

Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is.

What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.



Bingo.

But rolling back the scanner overlay would signal that CCP made a huge mistake, and no way that is gong to happen.
I lived in wh's for over a year starting 5 hours after Apochrypha went live, and occasionally take cruises through them even now. That was before all the websites and consolidation took place in the wh community. Wormhole pockets were a scary place then, but manageable. The overlay scanner made things too easy, but this proposal swings the pendulum way way too far the other way.

If the wh conditions with regard to scanning were rolled back to what they were like a year ago, this proposal would not even be needed.
So that is precisely what WON'T happen.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2014-03-25 09:02:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
-snipped-

If the wh conditions with regard to scanning were rolled back to what they were like a year ago, this proposal would not even be needed.
So that is precisely what WON'T happen.


Regrettably I think you are right. Humans have a disturbing knack of doing anything but reversing changes that did not turn out that well. It's like we think that nobody will notice we where wrong and we keep touting the old 'this is just making it better'.

So I say again: Bite the bullet. The old system where far superior to the new one and the proposed one. It was easy to understand, identical everywhere and did what the now proposed changes intend to address.

As for the 'probe spamming' argument I just don't see the problem. If yoou don't like it, then do not scan... Evil
Maxim Hibra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#531 - 2014-03-25 09:17:11 UTC
This idea is, quite frankly, absolutely terrible. Now, pvp is fun, and more opportunities for pvp is good. But if you intent to live in a WH, you must do sites to make isk to pay for POS fuel and replace ships. This change would make doing sites pretty much impossible, especially for smaller corps with limited numbers, as you would have no warning at all that a wormhole to a hostile system has opened up until you see their ships on your d-scan, at which point it is likely too late to get to safety (and they could be using cloaky ships so you can't even see them until they land and uncloak). Imagine what would happen if you removed local from nullsec, except this would be even worse. At least even if you remove local, you could still have scouts sitting in all the systems leading to the one you're ratting and hitting the d-can there to see if hostiles are heading to your gate.

I'm going to take a guess that there are no similar plans to remove local from nullsec to introduce a similar element of unknown there (which would really make sense; nullsec is supposed to be mostly unexplored frontier, so why does every system have a perfect communication network?). I wonder why? The conspiracy theorist in me would guess that this change is motivated by the nullsec cartels whining about high class wormholes being too profitable, because God forbid anybody makes as much money as they do, so they want to ruin the WH income and force everybody to move to nullsec and become their renters. Of course, that's just crazy talk. It's not like CCP favours their buddies in the nullsec coalitions over other people...Well, there was the T20-thing, but that's ancient history. It's not like they do stuff like that anymore. Right?
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#532 - 2014-03-25 09:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Neutrino Sunset
Jack Miton wrote:
Two step wrote:
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder.

yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.


Think I'm going to have to create a couple of trial accounts so that I can like this post a few more times.

Edit: And here's a link to it if anyone else wants to like it. Hopefully the devs will at least read those posts with the most likes. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4383866#post4383866
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#533 - 2014-03-25 09:47:31 UTC
I am planning on evicting a lot of people soonish. This change will make keeping people out almost impossible. Please, save evictions and say no to this change.

No trolling please
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#534 - 2014-03-25 10:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.

We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent).
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.

This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.

I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.

Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely.
Thanks!
-Fozzie

also could you set up the overlay so that when it is on OFF position, it is really OFF and doesn't sweep when entering new system / undocking station, wich is utterly ridiculous?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#535 - 2014-03-25 10:41:42 UTC
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Fozzie, also consider why it's so hard to find a wormhole on SiSi.


Its so hard because they don't get rotated. No one is in them on SiSi, so they stay in the same place and don't get "activated".

O RLY?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#536 - 2014-03-25 11:03:55 UTC
Bad idea.

I haven't had a chance to read much in the thread but wanted to express my extreme dislike for changing the current mechanic. The fix to poor gameplay decisions (removing deep space probes) should not involve arbitrary time limits in only one region of space. You instead need to be clear in where you are taking things. If you wanted everyone to see sigs to show people that there are other things in system to explore, then do that.

Put tools in the players hands that will improve and reward skilled and active players, not arbitrary time limits.
Mcpate
Unknown Means Unknown Consequenses
#537 - 2014-03-25 11:31:56 UTC
Just THINK of the RUSSIANS we will DESTROY with this new (non)mechanic

http://youtu.be/s2yDVYj7czQ?t=7m48s

I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell. Harry S. Truman
Tsalaroth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#538 - 2014-03-25 11:45:46 UTC
AutumnWind1983 wrote:



If you wanted to farm safely maybe you should go check out some of that space you're renting out in your signature.


Yes, yes, because attacking him makes you feel better because you can't actually attack his good idea.
Tsalaroth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#539 - 2014-03-25 11:48:36 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.


Arrival of hostile forces can always be almost instantly detected by using Directional Scans. there's more than one scanner.

I highly doubt that delaying the appearance of signatures can affect those who are constantly on their guard and currently there are a lot of people who do not use the directional scanner and get caught with their pants down. if you use all the tools at your disposal to detect incoming hostiles to their full potential, you won't get caught unprepared.

I would also like to point at the post above this one and second it.

tl;dr: Those who stay alert will still see incoming hostiles in time, whether the signature's appearance is delayed or not.


His "presenting more targets" is silly. Fleet battle target numbers will stay the same. All the current setup does is let us find people who won't fight - eviction targets.
Tsalaroth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2014-03-25 11:50:56 UTC
Seriously, if you're going to do this, make logging off in wh space impossible. You don't e-warp, you don't go anywhere, you just float in space until you're podded. Go for full realism or not this half-way stuff, please. This way, log-off traps (the most unrealistic, un-sandboxy bullshit ever, and yes we've used it) become pointless, you get your "hard-mode", and everyone's happy.

Also, the game becomes just a tiny bit more realistic.

Thanks.