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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#901 - 2014-03-21 18:24:53 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...

Fly a skiff instead. They can hit 80k EHP, making them impervious to casual ganking. Sure, a concentrated overkill force could still take you down, but that would only happen if you were deliberately being targeted because you were being obnoxious, perhaps in an out of game forum.

the new order takes on skiffs and even orcas. i know this first hand because i'm not always on the receiving side.

The New Order takes on people who are specifically obnoxious to them; people who talk back. You can avoid this by not being obnoxious. The moldy, moth-bitten argument that highsec is less safe than nullsec is studded with the belief that one should not have to fit their ship against disaster; that one is entitled to the best yields simply by being in highsec. If you dissuade against casual ganking by flying a tankable ship, keep your mouth shut, and keep an ear out for the next Burn Jita and/or Hulkageddon, you'll find that your troubles will dwindle to an infinitesimal level.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#902 - 2014-03-21 18:25:51 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...


I see no KB history at all for you.
Marcia en Welle
Doomheim
#903 - 2014-03-21 18:27:35 UTC
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
The Mineral M3 = Module M3 (for all modules) There is no room for compression here. They could have done this if they wanted to.

You must be trolling. Sorry CCP messed up your spreadsheet, but anyone can see why mineral m3 = module m3 would be a ridiculous situation.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#904 - 2014-03-21 18:27:37 UTC
Querns wrote:
keep your mouth shut,


By that you mean to pay them the extortion money? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#905 - 2014-03-21 18:27:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


There is no reason at all to make these changes. It only serves one purpose. Pull people out of highsec and lowsec and put them into nullsec. That is it.

There is no economic benefit to any of this, there is no gameplay benefit to any of this, and they are making a ship that takes a long while to get into effectively redundant outside of a clone boat.


CCP are rewarding people who do these activities in areas of greater risk. This is a good thing.
Mario Putzo
#906 - 2014-03-21 18:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...


I see no KB history at all for you.


You can gank Skiffs/Macks/Orca easily with less than 10 destroyers and it is a green KB everytime.

baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


There is no reason at all to make these changes. It only serves one purpose. Pull people out of highsec and lowsec and put them into nullsec. That is it.

There is no economic benefit to any of this, there is no gameplay benefit to any of this, and they are making a ship that takes a long while to get into effectively redundant outside of a clone boat.


CCP are rewarding people who do these activities in areas of greater risk. This is a good thing.


Then why nerf scrap metal processing and ore processing which is a big income line for lowsec which is infinitely more dangerous than 0.0 or HS?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#907 - 2014-03-21 18:28:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Querns wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...

Fly a skiff instead. They can hit 80k EHP, making them impervious to casual ganking. Sure, a concentrated overkill force could still take you down, but that would only happen if you were deliberately being targeted because you were being obnoxious, perhaps in an out of game forum.

the new order takes on skiffs and even orcas. i know this first hand because i'm not always on the receiving side.

The New Order takes on people who are specifically obnoxious to them; people who talk back. You can avoid this by not being obnoxious. The moldy, moth-bitten argument that highsec is less safe than nullsec is studded with the belief that one should not have to fit their ship against disaster; that one is entitled to the best yields simply by being in highsec. If you dissuade against casual ganking by flying a tankable ship, keep your mouth shut, and keep an ear out for the next Burn Jita and/or Hulkageddon, you'll find that your troubles will dwindle to an infinitesimal level.

again, from first hand experience i can assure you that the new order will take on anyone it wants and the amount of tank is much less relevant than you seem to believe. 'tank your ship' is just as much a straw man as nullsec mining 'effort'.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#908 - 2014-03-21 18:29:57 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
The Mineral M3 = Module M3 (for all modules) There is no room for compression here. They could have done this if they wanted to.

You must be trolling. Sorry CCP messed up your spreadsheet, but anyone can see why mineral m3 = module m3 would be a ridiculous situation.


Its really just a simple formula that has to be added (to my spreadsheet nothing is ruined)

I don't understand would this make logistics harder? .. good its already to easy.

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#909 - 2014-03-21 18:30:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...


I see no KB history at all for you.

'post with your main!'

I should buy an Ishtar.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#910 - 2014-03-21 18:30:38 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Querns wrote:
keep your mouth shut,


By that you mean to pay them the extortion money? Roll

If you're at your keyboard, you don't have to pay. Even if you don't pay, you just get bumped; you do not run the risk of being destroyed. They only engage those who are willful and make a big stink about it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#911 - 2014-03-21 18:30:46 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Then why nerf scrap metal processing which is a big income line for lowsec?


Thats because near all of them fit no tank.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#912 - 2014-03-21 18:31:19 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

you are already investing this effort, with or without mining. if the space you hold is not worth it without mining, either start ******* mining or abandon 0.0 and join fw. seeing as you are unwilling to do either, the effort is probably worth it and the intel network can be considered free, as far as mining ops go.
the same amount of effort would be highly inefficient (or even impossible) in highsec and would have exactly 0 benefit beyond safer mining. again, reality, not *what if we were idiots who didn't know how to intel*.

correct, we should be properly rewarded for the amount of effort we put in
that we put in the effort does not make the effort free and does not entitle a lazy highseccer roleplaying a bot to anywhere close to the same level of reward: to the extent it does the game needs fixing

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#913 - 2014-03-21 18:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Toshiro Ozuwara
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec is the safest area of space in EVE and is going to rightfully offer less reward than the more risky areas come summer which is only right.

What is risky about being a nullbear in the CFC?

Your rewards are already greater than your risk, or all of the carebears in nullsec would be in hisec. No one except cap builders would be renting.

For the love of christ, you guys are so wealthy, you offer 200% peacetime SRP in your alliance. Does anyone really believe you're taking any risk being in Deklein? Does anyone really believe that people in the CFC are daring and courageous, taking on odds that no one else will? Laughing in the face of danger?

Man...

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#914 - 2014-03-21 18:32:23 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec you fit up a tanked mack/skiff, go watch a film and let concord do the guarding.

funnily enough, i lost at least three tanked macks to ganks exactly this way...


I see no KB history at all for you.

'post with your main!'


Give me the evidence to your claims. Without any you just look to be telling lies to win an argument in order to try and keep a broken reward system that benefits you.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#915 - 2014-03-21 18:32:49 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

again, from first hand experience i can assure you that the new order will take on anyone it wants and the amount of tank is much less relevant than you seem to believe. 'tank your ship' is just as much a straw man as nullsec mining 'effort'.

tanking your ship is no excuse to go afk. it does, however, mean that while you are having your computer legally bot for you, it takes many people to take you down. but there should never be a situation you are free of risk while you are legally botting

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#916 - 2014-03-21 18:33:38 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Highsec is the safest area of space in EVE and is going to rightfully offer less reward than the more risky areas come summer which is only right.

What is risky about being a nullbear in the CFC?

Your rewards are already greater than your risk, or all of the carebears in nullsec would be in hisec. No one except cap builders would be renting.


We are not the only people in null. How about you ask the NC and PL about how little risk there is in null?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#917 - 2014-03-21 18:33:42 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:

again, from first hand experience i can assure you that the new order will take on anyone it wants and the amount of tank is much less relevant than you seem to believe. 'tank your ship' is just as much a straw man as nullsec mining 'effort'.

This is true. They take on whoever they want. Fortunately for anyone with a brain, "whoever they want" are the people who are obnoxious and raise a stink about their entitlements. Don't do that, and surprise -- you have no trouble.

Attempting to take a crowbar and open up these improbable series of events into everyday occurrence is a pretty tired tactic.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#918 - 2014-03-21 18:35:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
You bring up some good points.

1.) Don't get me started on the imbalances of the Sov system. Ill admit that the current system makes it very risky for small entities holding sov, which is why nullsec production will generally be found in the "Safer" homes of larger coalition entities. From such positions, the risk of loss is pretty much identical to that of a lowsec producer. Stop the propaganda and be honestly, unless you are in a small alliance/coalition, this is a very small risk your BPO's get locked up in a station.

2.) I did not realize the nullsec Minmatar stations only have 5 MFG lines. Even upgraded, you aren't going to have too many MFG lines. This is a legitimate reason to boost Minmatar station refining. To be honest though, minmatar stations are primarily built FOR their refining potential. It makes sense they should refine better than other stations, I just don't know where that level should be. They are regularly upgraded to Tier 1 stations, and I firmly believe that the POS Intensive refinery should refine better than the Tier 1 Minmatar Outpost. I like the 54% POS, 53% Tier1 Minmatar balance, and would recommend reducing the efficiency of "Other" outposts rather than increasing the efficiency of the Minmatar ones.


1) The largest alliance (at the time) got butchered like a hog only a few months ago. Nothing in 0.0 is guearanteed: while GSF is relatively secure for the moment, it also was relatively secure when it was an ally of the old Northern Coilition (which collapsed) and our capital was sieged, and it was relatively secure in its old incarnation as Goonswarm when it collapsed completely in a light wind. Just because we've put a great deal of effort into securing ourselves doesn't make us invulnerable - nor does it justify nerfing sov 0.0, which requires far more effort and requires placing far more at risk to enter or hold than lowsec. A sov 0.0 capital producer is far more at risk than a lowsec producer who is never at risk. You'd think the BPOs would be safe and only the minerals/caps would be at risk, but well IRC managed to lose all theirs once.

2) There is no justification for a system that must be built at great expense (and risk, the egg can die), paid for, defended, and that can be lost to be inferior to any npc outpost. There is no justification for a lowseccer to have a station that is strictly better than an outpost. Yes, lowsec will no longer have its absolute superiority over sov null (which has never had a 100% refinery with meaningful amounts of slots). Anyone with an outpost in 0.0 will be able to equal a lowsec producer. They will have the option of spending huge amounts of money and take on greater risk to outcompete (and anyone using those 60% refineries will be building in a pos, at vast risk compared to a station where your build can't die, or moving uncompressed minerals to another station, a huge expense and risk lowsec doesn't need to do).

You're asking that your risk-free effort-free station outcompete sov 0.0. Thats nuts.


I guess I just have a different perception on the risks associated with station lockouts. I'm not sure we'll see eye to eye on this at the moment.

However, as you have pointed out, there is a large amount of effort in moving the refined minerals to a production facility as the Minmatar Outpost itself is limited in its production lines. This is perhaps enough justification for bumping up the Minmatar Outpost's base refine rate.

Would something like this be reasonable in your estimate?

Non-Minnie Outpost: 50, 52, 54, 57
Minnie Outpost: 52 (best a highseccer can get), 54 (Best a POS can get), 57, 60.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#919 - 2014-03-21 18:35:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

you are already investing this effort, with or without mining. if the space you hold is not worth it without mining, either start ******* mining or abandon 0.0 and join fw. seeing as you are unwilling to do either, the effort is probably worth it and the intel network can be considered free, as far as mining ops go.
the same amount of effort would be highly inefficient (or even impossible) in highsec and would have exactly 0 benefit beyond safer mining. again, reality, not *what if we were idiots who didn't know how to intel*.

correct, we should be properly rewarded for the amount of effort we put in
that we put in the effort does not make the effort free and does not entitle a lazy highseccer roleplaying a bot to anywhere close to the same level of reward: to the extent it does the game needs fixing

again, if the effort you are spending was not appropriately rewarded already, you would not be investing it and go defend innia against the squids instead (or frogs, as the case may be). so the situation then is you are already investing an appropriate price to obtain a product and then demand an extra gym membership to go with it, even though you don't even do work-out.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mario Putzo
#920 - 2014-03-21 18:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Weaselior wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

you are already investing this effort, with or without mining. if the space you hold is not worth it without mining, either start ******* mining or abandon 0.0 and join fw. seeing as you are unwilling to do either, the effort is probably worth it and the intel network can be considered free, as far as mining ops go.
the same amount of effort would be highly inefficient (or even impossible) in highsec and would have exactly 0 benefit beyond safer mining. again, reality, not *what if we were idiots who didn't know how to intel*.

correct, we should be properly rewarded for the amount of effort we put in
that we put in the effort does not make the effort free and does not entitle a lazy highseccer roleplaying a bot to anywhere close to the same level of reward: to the extent it does the game needs fixing


Just because you refuse to seize your reward doesn't mean it is not there. I actively go throughout Tribute, Vale. On a daily basis. It is empty everywhere. Minerals as far as the eye can see. Hell there are even very lucrative mining sites that are never touched, when cleared generate a sizeable income. Hell you could stick 100 dudes in Ventures and do it risk free...but you don't.

The irony of being lazy.