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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Scaugh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#761 - 2014-03-21 13:57:59 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Scaugh wrote:

can you actually show me where this is a fact and not as a result of what you are saying.

go out and test, and you'll find out

if you don't believe the facts when we tell you them, what else are we going to do, tell them to you again?



OK so it happens because we say is happens. That is all you are proving with your reply and the only FACT I know is true in this whole conservation is that you are simply stating them as so.

I'm putting it up to you to Goon overlord to put up or shut up.

Tessen
Stellar Tide
#762 - 2014-03-21 13:58:36 UTC
Missing : Total volume for input materials.

Could make sens when you ask : Should i reprocess of not for transport ?
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#763 - 2014-03-21 14:00:25 UTC
Beofryn Sedorak wrote:
Minari Inocari wrote:
"Keep calm and carry on"

This is not something to be calm about. You're going to ruin Pro Synergy, a salvaging service corp, and they're already hitting harder times because of the MTU. This is going to be a huge hit to new players and mission runners who rely on their services to become established in eve, and your "compensation" does nothing to help them.

This change is not something I can support at all.


Empires rise, And empires fall, Some even burn to the ground. It's the natural order of things. Adapt or die.


Die - definition: Player quits, **** rolls down hill, you have nothing, you quit.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#764 - 2014-03-21 14:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Malcanis wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%


he explained at some length why perfect reprocessing is undesirable.

And yet by all accounts it is still there, and in many cases you now get more minerals than current refining.
Quote:

It prevents us from giving low and null-security facilities some advantage: Player-built stations in null security space can only be, at their very best, equivalent with NPC stations that are spread all across New Eden.
Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity.
It limits a game designer’s ability to increase material composition on items when needed, as this would give players free stuff in the process. As an example, we were forced to add Extra Materials to most of the ships that have been through the Tiericide initiative (which by itself, added a lot of confusion for players engaged in Manufacturing).
It devalues the Rorqual and its compression facilities as a whole, since modules exist with better compression ratios.

This has been achieved with the skill changes and facilities calculation reworks. And top yield is now coming from null sec, so mission accomplished, so why leave top yield at 86.8% in the best facilities?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#765 - 2014-03-21 14:07:40 UTC
Weaselior wrote:


Today I plan to work out exactly how many freighterloads of hauling people need to do to a pos to compress reasonable amounts of minerals, I have a sneaking suspicion its something obscene though since ore is bulky as all hell.


...what Marcia said

Marcia en Welle wrote:

..... This whole change makes it very inefficient to transport refined ores, meaning that if you want max refining rates for your production, then that production needs to be done in null sec.

This works both ways with high sec not being able to benefit from the cheaper minerals which would come about if it was easy to transport the refined ores from null to jita.

The point is that you need to move your whole production chain into null sec or face inefficiency, but on the other hand, you will gain a big advantage with the superior refining rates.
Coras Aldeland
K32 Industries
#766 - 2014-03-21 14:08:53 UTC
I think refining and recycling (or reprocessing) should be completely separate requiring completely different skills. You technically don't REprocess a raw material.

I agree that it was too easy to achieve 100% refining efficiency but I question if the numbers have moved too far. I don't see where 100% efficiency is even attainable. Looking at the first chart showing before and after efficiencies, I think 52% for no skill is OK but only 72.4% after that much time spent training? If a Minmatar outpost is the best at 60% efficiency then with max skills and 4% implant should give you 100% refining efficiency. Everything should be calculated down from there. In other words, the 72.4% available in a 50% station should be 90% and slide faster down to the 52% with no skills.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#767 - 2014-03-21 14:09:59 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#768 - 2014-03-21 14:14:01 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".


Which risk?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#769 - 2014-03-21 14:19:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".


Which risk?


The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#770 - 2014-03-21 14:22:25 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


I think you should improve your understanding of the phrase "risk versus reward".

i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#771 - 2014-03-21 14:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
admiral root wrote:
The inherent risk that comes with living in nullsec.

the inherent risk of living in (sov) nullsec need not be greater than the inherent risk of living in highsec, considering alpha nados and the New Order. and yet you demand greater rewards.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#772 - 2014-03-21 14:25:47 UTC
Coras Aldeland wrote:

I agree that it was too easy to achieve 100% refining efficiency but I question if the numbers have moved too far. I don't see where 100% efficiency is even attainable. ... If a Minmatar outpost is the best at 60% efficiency then with max skills and 4% implant should give you 100% refining efficiency. Everything should be calculated down from there. In other words, the 72.4% available in a 50% station should be 90% and slide faster down to the 52% with no skills.
One problem with having 100% be attainable, though, was that it limited the ability of the developers to adjust things or introduce refining improvements into the game.

Look at it this way. They could, if they wanted to, introduce T3 mining barges (or strip miners, mining upgrades, mining crystals, new skills, etc.) right now and give them lower cycle times or larger m3 collection rates. They have the ability to improve resource collection this way.

Until this change, there was no way to improve on refining. You couldn't go beyond the 100% ceiling. More to the point, training the ore-specific refining skills to level 5 was a silly waste of time, as you could easily reach 100% (even in null) without doing so.

By leaving some room between the "best available refining" and 100%, they have the ability to adjust things as they see how the market reacts to these changes. They can adjust the refining rates in low sec and NPC null, introduce new POS modules, play around with how different skills affect things, create new refining implants, and all kinds of other things.

Besides, all refining has some inherent waste involved. So there is a bit or realism (and congruence with other things in the game) by not allowing anyone to reach the 100% refining rate.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#773 - 2014-03-21 14:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Daniel Plain wrote:

i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.


This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing.

The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#774 - 2014-03-21 14:30:43 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much.


It didn't seem that way from your previous post.

Daniel Plain wrote:
the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec.


And it still doesn't look that way given this post.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#775 - 2014-03-21 14:32:13 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them.

I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#776 - 2014-03-21 14:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Batelle wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.


This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing.

The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way.

go back a few pages and you will see me writing my opinion on the changes, or lack thereof. the post you quote refers to an answer to mynna's post which explicitly dealt with mining.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#777 - 2014-03-21 14:34:41 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them.

I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars.

You are adorable. Please keep posting this weird tangent.

Hint: no one should be mining highsec belts either. They also have terrible isk/hr. We in nullsec, however, are not responsible for the poor choices of those who live in fear of loss.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Mario Putzo
#778 - 2014-03-21 14:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Malcanis/Mynnna ITT is Just another example of why the CSM needs to be abolished.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#779 - 2014-03-21 14:38:17 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:

i understand risk versus reward very well, thank you very much. the fact of the matter is that in deep sov 0.0, mining is arguably more safe than in hisec. and no, the investment it took to take the space does not count because you already have it, be it for ratting, moon mining, PI or just for epeen. the space is already there, you just want it to be even more profitable than it already is at the cost of people who prefer to play in a way different from yours.


This has nothing to do with mining and everything to do with manufacturing. If you're a highsec miner that wants to sell to nullsec, you will now compress the ore directly and it will get shipped to those nice shiny refineries. Thus your product is not disadvantaged at all. The buff to nullsec refining means that there's a reward, not entirely for the risk, but also for the unavoidable costs of doing manufacturing in nullsec. This change basically gives null a better stake in t1 manufacturing.

The more I think about these changes the more awesome I think they are in every way.


This is a brilliant analysis, all of high sec selling compressed ore to null sec for refining. What could go wrong?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#780 - 2014-03-21 14:39:29 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...


Oh Daniel, you don't believe their lies about how null sec belts work either? These guys act like no one can fly out there and see system after system of rocks that have sat for YEARS. They act like the respawn rate of the rocks has anything to do with the fact that they can't be bothered to mine themselves or compel their members to mine for them.

I figure once this new change fails to generate any significant amount of mining in null sec (outside of attempts to manipulate markets of course) that the Goons will just ask CCP to bypass all the other game mechanics that they can't be bothered to use and just put Supercaps directly in their hangars.

please don't put words in my mouth.

I should buy an Ishtar.