These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
DEFANDER
CSV - Like in politics - rules apply differently
#741 - 2014-03-21 11:53:15 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

All player-driven industry should be better than any NPC-driven industry.



Player driven industry in null should be better then NPC, if you maximize everything.
Fully upgrade Outposts for Industry, and you will have that.
Rastlor
Torpedo Industries
#742 - 2014-03-21 11:54:44 UTC
A possible fix for this to me appears simple - make JF's unable to carry compressed ore.

In this way the Rorq has a use (outside of sitting in a POS or for seeding a region with SBUs), people actually have to put something at risk e.g. freighters jumping compressed ore into Low sec to the waiting Rorq etc in order to be able to get the benefit of importing from High and Refining in null.

Give the Lowsec types something to look forward too as well with this change who doesn't like a un-escorted freighter jumping into your welcoming arms.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#743 - 2014-03-21 12:00:12 UTC
I guess i dont get how this changes the desire to train refining at all, which is being advertised as the main reason.

The bonus of 0 skills vs max skills stays roughly the same, due to pos array, yet now you can get max skill bonus only in null.

Wouldnt giving pos and null 50% base and replacing null ore with a "superdense" 25% variant achieve all this without killing off mineral compression and reducing mission rewards?

What am i missing here? It does really seem like "YOU WILL HAVE TO SHIP ALL ORE TO NULL!!!" is the main reason.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#744 - 2014-03-21 12:02:40 UTC
mynnna wrote:
- it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task.
\

Admitting that you and your friends are too lazy or self important to actually mine the asteroids in your space isn't much of an attack on my premise. Neither is admitting that in an alliance with 20,000 or more members you can't arrange or force your new members to take up the task of mining for the almighty alliance. That sounds like a problem with logistics and leadership, not with game design.
DEFANDER
CSV - Like in politics - rules apply differently
#745 - 2014-03-21 12:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: DEFANDER
Barton Breau wrote:


What am i missing here? It does really seem like "YOU WILL HAVE TO SHIP ALL ORE TO NULL!!!" is the main reason.



That is a huge reason.

And my question to everyone is .. Why ship it in the first place, when you can mine it in null ?

EDIT:

Why do alliances ( leadership ) force members to transport the mins in ?
Why not let those who want to mine in null do that.
And why not invite mining corporations to null, were they can mine and sell the ore to the alliance at Jita price.


Reason: By doing this they would have the share the pie instead of eating it all them self's.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2014-03-21 12:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
EDIT: nvm
Kuni Oichi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2014-03-21 12:18:17 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
mynnna wrote:
- it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task.
\

Admitting that you and your friends are too lazy or self important to actually mine the asteroids in your space isn't much of an attack on my premise. Neither is admitting that in an alliance with 20,000 or more members you can't arrange or force your new members to take up the task of mining for the almighty alliance. That sounds like a problem with logistics and leadership, not with game design.




A leadership that forces new players to mine is far more problematic than one that doesn't.
Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#748 - 2014-03-21 12:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Himnos Altar
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:


you are going to pretend like mittens (a.k.a. the mitani) and the Devs don't have circle jerk parties when he goes to Iceland and that his time as a CSM has not gained him a personal realtionship with them? Or are we going to pretend like the Devs haven't been caught more than once helping out their favorite null sec alliance like the Free BPOs they gave to BOB. The guy is not making some conspiracy theory he's pointing out a cozy relationship that does exist between the CCP devs and the big null sec alliance heads and a history of those cozy relationships leading to favoritism and in some cases outright cheating.



I'm going to assume you have a job/career you'd like to hang on to. Would *YOU* give your bestest best pal a freebie, knowing that doing so would likely cost you your job, and get you blackballed from the industry you work in? If not, why the default assumption that an employee at CCP would do it?

Also, referring to ~10 year old incidents as some kind of new, pressing trend is silly. The very few incidents since of dev misconduct that have happened, CCP has taken action and swiftly resolved the issue.

CCP recognized the fault, implemented controls, and have proven since that they'll act on said controls. Really, what MORE do you want, blood?


I am not saying that this type of activity is happening again. I am pointing out an extreeme that a cozy relationship has lead to in the past and that to say it could or even probably would lead to some type of favoritism with the current restructuring is not out of the question or a silly thing to suggest.

Also people giving friends freebies happens in the business world every single day. It's not often caught but it happens a lot. As a matter of fact most of sales and marketing training is how to develop quasi-personal relationships with people and exploit that for business gain.

Also you are completely ignoring the fact that Mittens and CCP have common business interests. That is to say that they both make money when Eve gets press and the kind of Sov warfare battles CFC is involved in creates plenty of out of game news stories and lots of traffic to Mittens' website and free advertising for CCP.

However what I think CCP is missing is that this badboy behavior may get people to come check out the game it does not get them to stick around. I've read that Eve has a very high washout rate for trials. I can't help but think that the very thing which gets them the headlines is also what chases away many new players.


Confirming that low sec, hi sec gankers/deccers, and the frankly quite excellent PVE RollPirate are what drive all the trials away.
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#749 - 2014-03-21 12:26:21 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

Not fixing the POSs to use player skill to refine is an abomination, this needs to be fixed ASAP. ...

Module based mineral compression has always been an abomination and glad to see that go/get nerf'd. ...

Changing the pre-req for Refining Efficiency of Refining from V to IV is wack, unless you are also planning on doing the same thing for Advanced Laboratory Operation and Advanced Mass Production and a heap of other skills around the place.

Changing the batch amounts to the same number of units will make sense, thankyou. ...

Removal of the Ore Compression BPOs, NOOOOOOO!!!!! I just finished researching 4 complete sets to PE 20(Perfect PE), that was a waste of research time that I could have used on different BPOs :(

There are all very good points. Especially the last one, concerning the Ore Compression BPOs. Yes, they are beyond unwieldy and keeping track of 17 different BPOs is a genuine pain in the ass. But people have invested a great deal of time in researching them already, and that investment is not something that can be compensated for just by throwing them ISK when the BPOs are removed.

Honestly, as much of a pain as the BPOs can be, it's probably better to leave them in and to require their use in both the Rorqual (as before) and the new POS ore compression module.
DEFANDER
CSV - Like in politics - rules apply differently
#750 - 2014-03-21 12:34:16 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:

Not fixing the POSs to use player skill to refine is an abomination, this needs to be fixed ASAP. ...

Module based mineral compression has always been an abomination and glad to see that go/get nerf'd. ...

Changing the pre-req for Refining Efficiency of Refining from V to IV is wack, unless you are also planning on doing the same thing for Advanced Laboratory Operation and Advanced Mass Production and a heap of other skills around the place.

Changing the batch amounts to the same number of units will make sense, thankyou. ...

Removal of the Ore Compression BPOs, NOOOOOOO!!!!! I just finished researching 4 complete sets to PE 20(Perfect PE), that was a waste of research time that I could have used on different BPOs :(

There are all very good points. Especially the last one, concerning the Ore Compression BPOs. Yes, they are beyond unwieldy and keeping track of 17 different BPOs is a genuine pain in the ass. But people have invested a great deal of time in researching them already, and that investment is not something that can be compensated for just by throwing them ISK when the BPOs are removed.

Honestly, as much of a pain as the BPOs can be, it's probably better to leave them in and to require their use in both the Rorqual (as before) and the new POS ore compression module.


Agree
Jagoff Haverford
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#751 - 2014-03-21 12:43:52 UTC
Lemmih AI wrote:
Joanna RB wrote:
Does this now mean that an unimproved Minmatar outpost now is totally USELESS compared to the other races unimproved outposts, since its only advantage, the refinery, is now given to all 4 outposts at the same level?

I was wondering when someone would point point out this huge nerf. Currently, every unimproved outpost has some huge advantage over every other. The current state of things is that a fully upgraded non-Matari outpost still cannot touch an unupgraded Matari outpost; after this nerf, the Minmatar outpost starts at a huge disadvantage and grows only slightly better than other outposts with regard to refining. The Minmatar outpost should at least start with a better refining rate than others, even if only 5%. ...

Also, I've seen no mention of the fact that by changing Rorqual compression to not be a manufacturing process, you're reducing it's ore capacity, as before we could opt not to deliver jobs.
Excellent points here, as well.
Scaugh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#752 - 2014-03-21 12:47:29 UTC
Querns wrote:
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Querns wrote:

It's almost like you are dangerously misinformed about how asteroid belt mechanics work.


You are probably correct here. No one could possibly know about respawn rate timers on rocks day to day and the arguments on popping rocks vs leaving traces in them, popping roid sites to respawn new ones, or anything of that nature. Nobody reads or researches in their spare time.

If you did know these things, you'd know that nullsec asteroids contain inferior ore for generating lowends compared to lowsec and highsec, and would know that the "HUGE ASTEROIDS OMG" that you see in nullsec belts are the result of years of trickle accumulation and do not represent the state of the asteroid after it's been mined to completion. These asteroids would provide a one-time injection of minerals, and after this would trickle in ore at a snail's pace.



can you actually show me where this is a fact and not as a result of what you are saying.
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#753 - 2014-03-21 13:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Vulpine
A convenience request which CCP will hopefully consider.

Currently if I'm doing industry I can place a small number of buy orders for the minerals I need.
After this change I will need a much larger range of buy orders to get my compressed ores.

Can we have it so that :
100 Veldspar is compressed -> 100 compressed Veld
100 Concentrated Veld is compressed -> 105 compressed Veld
100 Dense Veld is compressed -> 110 compressed Veld

And so on for each ore type? Sure this reduces your theoretical maximum compression but it's likely a decent enough quality of life trade off. Or maybe retain the current BPOs for normal ores as an optional and using them simplifies the ore down as above.

Sure we'll still need more buy orders than now but not quite as many. It also makes life a bit easier for the little guy who wants just the right amount of minerals and easier for the budding industrialist who doesn't have to remember all of the ore variations. Leave the nitty gritty details of ore types as something for miners.

I'm still digesting the devblog and I may have missed it, will current ore cargo holds also be able to move compressed ore after the patch? I'm assuming they do currently but I've never actually tried.

And for all those complaining about losing their income stream, spare a thought for the poor scammers who currently try to sell overpriced rare compressed ores. I do hope they come up with something new and creative though, Jita local has been missing new scam types for a while.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#754 - 2014-03-21 13:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Basil Vulpine wrote:
A convenience request which CCP will hopefully consider.

Currently if I'm doing industry I can place a small number of buy orders for the minerals I need.
After this change I will need a much larger range of buy orders to get my compressed ores.

Can we have it so that :
100 Veldspar is compressed -> 100 compressed Veld
100 Concentrated Veld is compressed -> 105 compressed Veld
100 Dense Veld is compressed -> 110 compressed Veld

And so on for each ore type? Sure this reduces your theoretical maximum compression but it's likely a decent enough quality of life trade off. Or maybe retain the current BPOs for normal ores as an optional and using them simplifies the ore down as above.

Sure we'll still need more buy orders than now but not quite as many. It also makes life a bit easier for the little guy who wants just the right amount of minerals and easier for the budding industrialist who doesn't have to remember all of the ore variations. Leave the nitty gritty details of ore types as something for miners.

I'm still digesting the devblog and I may have missed it, will current ore cargo holds also be able to move compressed ore after the patch? I'm assuming they do currently but I've never actually tried.

And for all those complaining about losing their income stream, spare a thought for the poor scammers who currently try to sell overpriced rare compressed ores. I do hope they come up with something new and creative though, Jita local has been missing new scam types for a while.



So you want to lose the extra 5% and 10% compression you get from the ore variants? I suspects a great many people would argue with that.


Ore holds currently allow for compressed Ore. I see no reason for that to change.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#755 - 2014-03-21 13:39:35 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).


All player-driven industry should be better than any NPC-driven industry.

Rather than allow compression at stations, it should simply be possible to arrange for courier contracts to deliver things to POSes in some manner: for example a CHA anchored outside the shield (or a removal of the need for a POS shield at all).

Then there's always the option of replacing courier contracts with buy orders.


..... and we probaply will see a significant rise of transport volumes because hauling ores trequires more cargo then hauling minerals. Currently, the abundance of 100 % refining NPC stations mean, that most people haul minerals instead of ores. It might not be a bad thing fi CCP starts thinking about changing the cargo capacities for ore hauling.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#756 - 2014-03-21 13:43:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#757 - 2014-03-21 13:48:48 UTC
Scaugh wrote:

can you actually show me where this is a fact and not as a result of what you are saying.

go out and test, and you'll find out

if you don't believe the facts when we tell you them, what else are we going to do, tell them to you again?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#758 - 2014-03-21 13:53:52 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

All player-driven industry should be better than any NPC-driven industry.

Rather than allow compression at stations, it should simply be possible to arrange for courier contracts to deliver things to POSes in some manner: for example a CHA anchored outside the shield (or a removal of the need for a POS shield at all).

Then there's always the option of replacing courier contracts with buy orders.

I'm happy with that plan, but I imagine its infesible programming-wise because it requires more effort than they're willing to give (though it would be a huge, huge deal that I think should be done). Otherwise there's ways to make station compressing not as good - require it to use manufacturing slots and taking time (you could repurpose all those compression bpos!).

Today I plan to work out exactly how many freighterloads of hauling people need to do to a pos to compress reasonable amounts of minerals, I have a sneaking suspicion its something obscene though since ore is bulky as all hell.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#759 - 2014-03-21 13:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
mynnna wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Then make your recruiters do their stinking jobs and get 3 day old guys in ventures out there mining that crap. 1,000 guys in Ventures have to be better than your trit-drip you see. With changes to corp members allowed you guys have plenty of free space to get them doing gruntwork and still pay them worth their time.


Don't forget that CCP already dropped their shorts to the Goons when they added trit and pyerite to the mid grade ores a while back. Does anyone remember King windbag's pompous diatribe about farms and fields?

I guess that didn't work so now we have to try to rig the game some more to enable these people to be even more lazy than they already are. I invite anyone here to stop listening to the Goonswarm windbags who flood these forums with their crybaby antics and pick any path through null sec and visit system after system of belts that are never touched by a mining laser. Billions upon billions in ore and ice that never gets touched by a player. Yet all we see is post after post about how these people can't get enough minerals to make their precious supercaps. It is comical that these supposedly hardcore players who control hundreds of systems and have 20,000 members can't manage to put together a few billion tritanium.

And to top it all off, it is the "carebear" that is ruining the game! When exactly will CCP's catering to these people stop? Does it know no bounds?


So querns already made the point that you don't seem to get how asteroid belts work, so let's attack the rest of your premise. Imagine thescenario. You are a three day old newbie in an alliance well known for loving its newbies. You're looking for something to do, so do you a) start training down a pointless dead end training path (considering you want to pvp) and grab a venture, then go mining for 5m isk/hr? b) Run around behind a veteran looting his ratting sites for what is certainly more than that? c) bug a mentor for a stack of free frigates, have fun PvPing, then say something adorable on voice comms and get showered with more isk than you think you can possibly ever use (really, a couple hundred million) because of it?

Hint: The answer is not A.

And to squash the typical and hilariously wrong response I always see, the answer still does not become A if the person looking to buy the minerals just doubles the price he's willing to pay, because if you need some minerals are you going to a) offer to pay twice the going price just so you can get them locally or b) import them from empire in one of any of the readily available compressed forms?

Hint: The answer is, once again, not A.

Just to cap things off, none of this changes if we're talking about a veteran player, except the activities are more like A) jump into your mackinaw and, realizing you've trained yourself down a dead-end training path, drink yourself into a stupor while mining these "pristine belts" for (at best) about 35m/hr b) run around as the veteran newbies follow around, ratting for a minimum of 60m/hr or c) Go out and have fun PvPing, knowing that if you die, you'll actually make money because of the corp reimbursement policies. Or, d), **** off to FW lowsec on an alt and farm the missions for far more isk/hr than anything you'll do in your own space... but that's a different topic entirely.

Answer? Still not A, sorry.

In case you weren't aware, grav sites (the scanner based mining sites) respawn pretty much instantly if they're fully mined out. In other words, it's not like a lack of ore is why "we can't get enough minerals" - it's got everything to do with mining simply not being a worthwhile task.

TL;DR: "we're privileged fucks who cannot be arsed to tap the income sources that are bread and butter for hisec residents, yet we complain about hisec being OP".

i think you should reconsider your messaging there...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#760 - 2014-03-21 13:57:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Ytterbium, if the Minmatar Outpost once fully upgraded is the new "100%" could the numbers not be adjusted to reflect this? Some players may (and probably will) get extremely cranky to invest so much time and isk into getting there refining to perfect skills and implants only to see they refine at 86.8%


he explained at some length why perfect reprocessing is undesirable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016