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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#461 - 2014-03-20 21:49:17 UTC
Aleq Alexandrea wrote:
This will also kill starters profits.

It was very unprofitable to manifacture stuff as a starter. Now it will be even worse...

All of the minerals will start to dry-up and there will be nothing but ores in high sec. Mineral prices will go up like mad and all of the industrials specially new characters will start to loose money in high sec.

You have to do bunch of stuff to take your old profit again within low&null sec with the propability to loose all of the tings u carry

CCP, i wonder why we pay you money to work like slaves to get some fun from a game?



No.

One refiner is all it takes to convert the entirety of all ore generated ever into minerals.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#462 - 2014-03-20 21:50:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Krom Thomson wrote:


CCP has always been a goonz bi tch they have always bent over backwards for them


Yep, that's why the nerfed tech moons which we mostly controlled.



oh ya they totally nurfed your moonz if you know tec was the only type of moon all they did was switched what moons did what and it took you guys a whole of what 15 week to take all the new good moons ***** plz i'm ex cfc got tired of your anti indy policies
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#463 - 2014-03-20 21:52:22 UTC
At least the reprocessing implant (slot 8) does not compete with the already competing ore mining and ice harvesting implants (slot 10).

The numbers ... consider this?
Station Equipment 50%
Refining 5
Refining Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 4
No implant

This is provides access to T2 crystals, i.e. maximal mining and a perfect refining rate (given the standing).

Current refinement:
Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05)
.5 + 0.375 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.094

New refinement:
Station Equipment x (1 + Refining skill x 0.03) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.02) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.02) )
.5*1.15*1.1*1.08=0.6831


Basically that's 31.69% less than before.
With the adjustment (* 1.381) you end up with 94.3%

That is the income of quite decent miners will drop by 5.7% ...
How would you feel if your boss would tell you that he is going to cut your wage by that amount?

I'm quite glad I stopped mining!
Skrizzy
Superior Plystic Group
#464 - 2014-03-20 21:52:39 UTC
Are the changes buffing the isk possible to made in null? Its only large/strong alliances gaining from that. Soon they got all access to the goodies and not even need to get it in to sec space to transform it into nice isk. Doing it out there where all the goodies are shold have huge drawbacks... If you really want to make this game into a one side versus the other you should do the changes...
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2014-03-20 21:52:50 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Please dispense with your tin foil hat, this is not some Goon conspiracy. Being able to mine in our sov has never been a problem. Rather, the problem with mining in null sov is the inherent nightmare of logistics that's associated with carrying that ore and refining it efficiently (currently can only be done in empire).


In other words, laziness.


No.

Rather it takes too much time and effort to be even remotely profitable. I can, for instance go kills rats in null anomalies in the same time that takes for me to mine, carry the ore to the empire where I can refine it efficiently and make more ISK.

And CCP has come up with a hilariously unwise 'fix' to that by choosing to capitalize on this problem by making refining a bigger time sink then it was before, equally in empire and in null.

Do you really think this will effect any serious null dweller negatively? Because your average null dweller in a good organization can make ISK more easily than pretty much anybody else, and I don't know many seasoned null dwellers that only keep a single character. Most, if not all, have an army of alts.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#466 - 2014-03-20 21:53:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Using maths, can you explain how to make refining in nullsec better than trivially available 100% refines in free, invulnerable NPC station in hi-sec?


Why should refining in nullsec be better than anywhere else?

Nullsec already has better: Ratting, Rocks, Anomalies, Missions, PI, etc, etc. I'm not real sure how anyone can say that risk out there isn't rewarded.


So miners and re-processors shouldn't be rewarded for taking more risk?

What additional risks are they taking? As you are so fond of reminding everyone (and your corp in particular is fond of reminding everyone) hisec isn't safe. Every hisec miner is dealing with the same issues a nosec miner is dealing with. Only with far less protection, anonymity, and seclusion.

The risk/reward line doesn't work with everything.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#467 - 2014-03-20 21:55:05 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
At least the reprocessing implant (slot 8) does not compete with the already competing ore mining and ice harvesting implants (slot 10).

The numbers ... consider this?
Station Equipment 50%
Refining 5
Refining Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 4
No implant

Part of the change is to provide a reason to train the individual ore skill to 5.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#468 - 2014-03-20 21:55:55 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Nullsec is more second world, where you can pay sweatshop wages, mangle the environment in the name of efficiency, and other scorched earth policies.

Someone has never been to nullsec.

Also, LOL SECOND WORLD, GSF is paying 200% peacetime srp. Real second world.


Agony held sov.

There are great profits to be made in forcing your slaves/non-unionized labor to work harder for their capsular overlords.
mkint
#469 - 2014-03-20 21:55:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right, so this announcement is not a net nerf to high sec?
No, it buffs it pretty significantly, bringing faster and better abilities than it ever had before.

You're usually good with the market stuff. Didn't you read the dev blog? It says very very explicitly, that an absolutely maxed out (someone else did the math that it's 200 days worth of skills, i.e., nearly equivalent to a titan parking alt) would STILL have a lower refining yield than now. The dev blog also listed a more normal loss amount as well, at a 30% nerf to all empire refining. Not to mention the unapologetic PVE nerf. This change is yet another wealth redistribution. It gives (yes, gives, because it's a freebie, result of CSM politics) nullsec alliances a 60% or so economic advantage in anything that's made out of minerals (i.e. those super caps they use to hang onto their sov, and oh by the way get even better mineral compression than ever to help build.) That data is right there in the dev blog, and it just takes arithmetic.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Melek D'Ivri
Illuminated Overwatch Group
#470 - 2014-03-20 21:58:31 UTC
strikethree wrote:
Look. No matter how you spin it, you are making things harder and taking things away from us. Here is a particularly revealing quote from the dev blog: "Decreasing reprocessing efficiency as a whole affects the outcome of mining, which really doesn’t need to be nerfed right now."

So you are planning on nerfing mining as well in the future.

Why do you insist on making things harder and harder and less lucrative to the players? Where is the payoff for me? Where is the ISK to be made for the average player?

The end result of all this nerfing will be a game that has no rewards for the person paying to have fun.

You nerfed ice belts, you nerfed rats, you nerfed missions, you nerfed the amount and type of loot,you nerfed anoms, when are you going to be giving instead of taking? The only thing I ever remember you (CCP/Eve Devs) giving is artillery and autocannons. They were pointless to train for years and a few years ago, you un-nerfed them... but then nerfed the tracking enhancer.

Really, why should I continue giving you my money? Why should I continue giving you my money when you continuously make the game less fun and plan on continuing to do so? What is the draw for the casual player? The person who works 12 hours a day? You LIVE this game so none if this is all that serious to you. I can only visit occasionally, so each nerf makes it more and more impossible for me to have any fun since I can not earn any resources.

Ultimately, this game will NOT survive if it is all about alliances and null sec. You need casual players. Lots of them. Stop trying to turn us away by removing the ability to get resources. Actually *think* about what it is like for us. We can not mine for 6 hours a day. We can not run dozens of a missions a day. We can not run alliances out in null (we can barely even participate in any of the battles!). Think about us please.


Damn that is good stuff. Please run for CSM, you actually seem vested in the average player unlike the rest of candidates and seat warmers I've seen.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#471 - 2014-03-20 21:58:47 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
No.

Rather it takes too much time and effort to be even remotely profitable. I can, for instance go kills rats in null anomalies in the same time that takes for me to mine, carry the ore to the empire where I can refine it efficiently and make more ISK.

And CCP has come up with a hilariously unwise 'fix' to that by choosing to capitalize on this problem by making refining a bigger time sink then it was before, equally in empire and in null.

Do you really think this will effect any serious null dweller negatively? Because your average null dweller in a good organization can make ISK more easily than pretty much anybody else, and I don't know many seasoned null dwellers that only keep a single character. Most, if not all, have an army of alts.


I was busting your chops with my first reply, you do have a point about the refining.

And your point about null dwellers is something we agree on. They have the best access to ISK. So do they need BETTER refining? They don't. I agree that they should have 100% refining ability in sov space. But an advantage over high sec just makes the mentality of null vs. high that is currently at work in this game even worse.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#472 - 2014-03-20 21:59:32 UTC
Anhenka wrote:

TLDR: Miners and indy guys are not needed.


You're right, which is why I figured this reprocessing change to be something of a stealth encouragement to make them more needed than they are now by making it harder to get large volumes of equipment with relatively little work (ie, mineral compression nerf).

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#473 - 2014-03-20 22:00:02 UTC
mkint wrote:
That data is right there in the dev blog, and it just takes arithmetic.

Goons have been gloating all morning. Is anyone really surprised?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#474 - 2014-03-20 22:00:28 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
At least the reprocessing implant (slot 8) does not compete with the already competing ore mining and ice harvesting implants (slot 10).

The numbers ... consider this?
Station Equipment 50%
Refining 5
Refining Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 4
No implant

This is provides access to T2 crystals, i.e. maximal mining and a perfect refining rate (given the standing).

Current refinement:
Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05)
.5 + 0.375 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.094

New refinement:
Station Equipment x (1 + Refining skill x 0.03) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.02) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.02) )
.5*1.15*1.1*1.08=0.6831


Basically that's 31.69% less than before.
With the adjustment (* 1.381) you end up with 94.3%

That is the income of quite decent miners will drop by 5.7% ...
How would you feel if your boss would tell you that he is going to cut your wage by that amount?

I'm quite glad I stopped mining!


A 5.7% reduction in minerals harvested does not mean you'll earn less isk/hr (which is the standard metric used for determining the income of a profession). Furthermore, the value of Ore will increase, as compressed Ore becomes the most efficient means to haul minerals about.

Overall, the value of minerals will change with this patch, and it is hard to predict exactly how that will alter the income of miners. In the end, this is a boost to miners though, as they are certain to benefit from either increased ore prices or increased mineral prices.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#475 - 2014-03-20 22:00:37 UTC
mkint wrote:

I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about people. I'm talking about what it is they want out of the game, what their ambitions are.

The odd thing is, you in particular, and your alliance in general, are being the noisiest and least clever supporters of this change. No arguments, just noise. Noise does not make you right. You probably see as clearly as I do how this benefits the nullsec alliances.

This change will lead even further to nullsec stagnation. This change is bad for the game.

the arguments are laid out clearly in the devblog and the many things we've posted before on this subject

we don't need new arguments. if you had any we'd rebut them but all you have is screeching and rending of garments and generally hilarious mistakes about how the game works, so we can just point and laugh

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#476 - 2014-03-20 22:00:46 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
And they already have those benefits. I have produced a huge amount of stuff in null sec so hump someone else's leg.

Industry out there doesn't need a buff beyond maybe making low grade minerals more available. If you can't make things out there then you are just lazy and no amount of CCP changes will change that.
Awww... insults and uncivil behaviour. You seem angry. Cry

It's not a question of whether or not you can build in null (cuz you definitely can), it's whether or not it is smart to. Right now it's not. Hi-sec has better facilities, more customers, and is infinitely safer. Logistically it's better to buy your stuff in hi-sec and jump it out to null, so that way every person in your alliance is combat-capable defender of your space instead of miner or builder (ideally). And actually null-sec does have every mineral you need in abundant quantities EXCEPT for Mexallon (still have no idea why CCP insists on that bottleneck). Fix that and they'd be another step closer to Industry being worthwhile in Null.

Quite simply the people that put in the time, effort, and teamwork to claim and build up a section of space should have the advantage over the hi-sec pubbies who just leech off the empire teat. Null-sec players are the ones risking their assets. They are the ones who have to deal with the stupid childish politics. And they are the ones who have to actively defend their space from aggressors.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#477 - 2014-03-20 22:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Basically that's 31.69% less than before.
With the adjustment (* 1.381) you end up with 94.3%

That is the income of quite decent miners will drop by 5.7% ...
So you're saying that the skills and implants are actually meaningful now? Excellent.

mkint wrote:
You're usually good with the market stuff. Didn't you read the dev blog? It says very very explicitly, that an absolutely maxed out (someone else did the math that it's 200 days worth of skills, i.e., nearly equivalent to a titan parking alt) would STILL have a lower refining yield than now.
…if you're refining scrap metal, which you shouldn't be doing in highsec anyway. For everything else, you can either outsource it for more cash or just do things better and faster in high now than you could before. And if you're in highsec, it's not 200 days either, by the way.

Quote:
This change is yet another wealth redistribution. It gives (yes, gives, because it's a freebie, result of CSM politics) nullsec alliances a 60% or so economic advantage in anything that's made out of minerals
Close. It gives null a handy advantage for anything made out of junk (and is sitll far lower than it used to be). For everything else, highsec will still be the source of the minerals.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#478 - 2014-03-20 22:04:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Basically that's 31.69% less than before.
With the adjustment (* 1.381) you end up with 94.3%

That is the income of quite decent miners will drop by 5.7% ...
So you're saying that the skills and implants are actually meaningful now? Excellent.

mkint wrote:
You're usually good with the market stuff. Didn't you read the dev blog? It says very very explicitly, that an absolutely maxed out (someone else did the math that it's 200 days worth of skills, i.e., nearly equivalent to a titan parking alt) would STILL have a lower refining yield than now.
…if you're refining scrap metal, which you shouldn't be doing in highsec anyway. For everything else, you can either outsource it for more cash or just do things better and faster in high now than you could before.

Quote:
This change is yet another wealth redistribution. It gives (yes, gives, because it's a freebie, result of CSM politics) nullsec alliances a 60% or so economic advantage in anything that's made out of minerals
Close. It gives null a handy advantage for anything made out of junk (and is sitll far lower than it used to be). For everything else, highsec will still be the source of the minerals.

Scrapmetal refines are identical yield in every outpost and every 50% station in empire and NPC nullsec. Conquerable nullsec does not have an advantage. Outpost refine bonuses from upgrades specifically exclude scrapmetal.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#479 - 2014-03-20 22:04:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Close. It gives null a handy advantage for anything made out of junk (and is sitll far lower than it used to be). For everything else, highsec will still be the source of the minerals.

null has no scrapmetal bonus: everyone refines scrap the same

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#480 - 2014-03-20 22:05:36 UTC
Looking forward to the summer expansion!