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[Serious Discussion] This game's community leaves much to be desired

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Helia Tranquilis
Confused Bunnies Inc
#301 - 2014-03-15 13:07:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
Yet such a time was several years ago, likely in a very different environment.

It was more dangerous back then.

And there was far less guidance.

It's not so much that anyone expects new players to have similar views of EVE as the older players, but that we expect them to at least take into consideration the fact that we've been there too, been through the same things they have, and figured out all kinds of neat ways to survive and even prosper. That when we say they can do something, there is actually a sliver of a chance that they can and that we're telling them this out of experience.
Yes, I'm aware that tutorials barely existed some time ago. But do the tutorials prepare for the world even now? That deserves another topic altogether.

There were comments about newbies being griefed or ganked right out of rookie station, did you experience that as well? Greeted by flashy reds or yellows 1 jump from the starter system? Spammed by duel requests before knowing what duel even is? Just a few examples out the top of my head.



What should also be considered is the fact that players are the product of their time. Players who started 5-10 years ago aren't necessarily of the same generation of people or players. They may have grown in a different kind of world, and that has the potential to carry here to the game. HTFU has very different meaning to a 12-year-old (PEGI 12 game) than to a 30-year-old.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#302 - 2014-03-15 13:07:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The Catalyst does not need 700 dps to kill a frigate (its intended role), ship scanners should not be free 100 accurate perves into every ship fitting.
What makes you say that killing frigates is the intended role of Catalysts?
And you do realise that squeezing 700 DPS out of a Catalyst makes it highly unsuitable for most kind of ganking, right?

Quote:
Oh and freighters (which are currently just shuttles) need fitting options.
I'd prefer it if my freighter wasn't nerfed, thankyouverymuch.

Oh, and…
Quote:
Change those two things you will see a lot of ganking decrease overnight.
Why is that needed?

Not interested in conversing with trolls sorry...


Why do you call somebody a troll when you just can't answer the simple question which is part of the conversation you are having?
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#303 - 2014-03-15 13:14:59 UTC
I will not paste in some obvious meme about internet and anonymity.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#304 - 2014-03-15 13:15:07 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Actually, I am coming to the realization that Highsec rules actually are equivalent to gunfree zones, so is the idiotic limitation of weaponless mining/merchant vessels....


If you thought high sec had rules in the 1st place, it demonstrates that your thinking is indeed as bad as IRL "Gun Free Zones".

Quote:

Concord, like the police warps in too late.


CONCORD are like real police, in that we deter and arrest but not "protect" in the purest sense. In the same way that Police don't relieve you of your personal duty to protect yourself, the existence of CONCORD doesn't relieve you of your personal duty to use the various tools the game gives you to protect yourself. Everything from mods to tactics to awareness to friends.

Quote:

**** it all, turn everything into a PVP combat ship, and let's all move to Texas.

It is conceptually asinine to conceive of a Universe filled with as many dickheads as EVE and not imagine that every single ************ would be armed like Robocop.



No it is not. EVE gives players sooooo many defensive tools it ain't even funny. IRL all I can do is wear my vest (and hope the vest catches the bullet and that the bullet didn't get fired from a freaking rifle) stay aware of my surroundings and perhaps shoot 1st. I'd trade actual body parts if my partner could "remote rep" me during a fight, or if I could hang a "Damage Control"necklace around my neck, or plug "implants" into my head that would give me more "ehp" against some dude trying to kill me because he doesn't want to go back to prison.......

In other words, there is nothing wrong with the game, the problem is you.


Bullshit, 'IRL' you shoot the ************ trying to shoot you.... you can't do that in a mining/merchant ship in eve.... which is ******* stupid

And I feel sorry for your family if you are a cop... if your idea of 'defense' is simply survival.... you are not nearly prepared to do what is necessary to face down a killer.


Wrong ... drones; and A Miner can be battle fit. Battle Ventures for instance.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#305 - 2014-03-15 13:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Battle freighters anyone? I have proposed at least something in lows so they can stay on the field or be more susceptible depending on the fit. Cargo expanders or bulkheads, things like that, but it's really something for another thread.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#306 - 2014-03-15 13:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
Yes, I'm aware that tutorials barely existed some time ago. But do the tutorials prepare for the world even now? That deserves another topic altogether.
It wasn't just the tutorials — it was everything. No formal database exploration; no wikis; lots of information treated as “proprietary” to specific groups; far fewer newbie-oriented groups and certainly no dev-sponsored teaching; fewer experiments and just generally less understood mechanics. Hell, I don't even remember a newbie Q&A forum when I started… Ugh

Quote:
There were comments about newbies being griefed or ganked right out of rookie station, did you experience that as well? Greeted by flashy reds or yellows 1 jump from the starter system? Spammed by duel requests before knowing what duel even is? Just a few examples out the top of my head.
Yes, and it was more common. Again, the mechanics were more esoteric and the resources for learning them non-existant so it was a lot easier for the attackers… oh, and they were less protected — not just mechanically (ganking was easier, losses smaller) but “legally” as well since the policies were far looser and more arbitrary. The whole section on “if you mess with newbies in these 16 systems, we will stomp your colon” in the rules didn't even exist.


…and I haven't even gotten to the part about walking uphill, barefoot, in the snow yet. P

Quote:
What should also be considered is the fact that players are the product of their time. Players who started 5-10 years ago aren't necessarily of the same generation of people or players. They may have grown in a different kind of world, and that has the potential to carry here to the game. HTFU has very different meaning to a 12-year-old (PEGI 12 game) than to a 30-year-old.
That is a fair point, but the question at that point is really if it should affect the design. Yes, parents can expect the game content (but not necessarily the interactions) to be non-offensive enough to suit a 12-year-old, but that doesn't mean it's actually a game for 12-year-olds. In practice, getting that rating is more a retail consideration — when releasing those boxed copies, it was needed in order for some outlets to carry the game. Also, ratings aside, EVE has always been a more adult game than your average MMO. Is that a bad thing? Or is it just a thing that needs to be communicated more clearly?
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
#307 - 2014-03-15 13:39:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
Majority of the replies on this thread only imply that it is impossible for the hardened bitter-vet crowd to understand eve from the viewpoint of a new player playing outside of blob-warfare. Can you expect a new player to have similar view of eve as a veteran watching the game through blood-stained combat goggles?


We were once new players too.


Very true, and when we were new players, EVE was a very different place.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#308 - 2014-03-15 13:45:02 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:


Very true, and when we were new players, EVE was a very different place.


It was a lot more harsh for a new player back then.
Salvos Rhoska
#309 - 2014-03-15 13:50:29 UTC
Wacthing the Rookie Chat for a day or two is quite informative of what may be some of the most immediate needs and issues of real first time players entering the game.

Many questions are repeated dozens of times a day.

I would be for some sort of stricter control and delineation of the Rookie systems.
New players need and imo deserve a bit of insulation from some of the more overt threats out there.
Not much, but just enough to avoid new player attrition feom aome of the more obvious and immediate frustrations they may face.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#310 - 2014-03-15 14:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I think the eaelier comment by someone, that much uneccessary and unfounded disgruntlement is actually rooted in some peoples inability or unwillingness to accept or understand the nature of this game as compared to many other MMOs, rather than the "toxiccommunity", is very true.

Its not the behavior of other people towards them that is the problem, the problem is their own attitude.

If I walk around in life with unrealistic expectations both of the way the world works and of the nature of my fellow mankind, I will be repeatedly dissappointed and angry, not because of what other autonomous people are doing in it, but because I am so stupid as to assume I am responsible for, or capable of controlling, anyone else except myself.

These people dont seem to understand the fundamental link between the ability to control an outcome, and being responsible for it.

I am not responsible for how others view my actions. Why? Because I have no business or auspice to control how they view it.
That is their own prerogative, purview and privilege and one I cannot determine or define. Its in their own head to which I have no access or business.

Reciprocally, this also means that though they are free to view my actions as they wish, their views have NO control over my own autonomous choices in my own life. Their views are their own, and not mine, and do not define how I choose to live my life, no matter how they try to claim that theirs is the "right" way.

But many people dont understand this. They think because they dont "like" something, that somehow means they are entitled to judge and restrict those who do like that.

How does this translate in EVE?

As some people who expect others to behave according to how THEY demand and perceive they should, according to their own internal system of beliefs. Is that fair towards the other person? Hell no. Does that entitle them to dictate how others should behave or think? Absolutely not. Why not? Becuase the same rationale could be levelled right back at them, and they, in return, be expected (against their own autonomy and self-determination) to act as those other people whom they presume to dictate to, dictate right back to them.

Its a ridiculous arrangement, premise and approach to interaction with others.

Its also extremely offensive and socially reprehenensible to even THINK you are in somekind of position to dictate to others how they should behave. It is none of your business. You have no control over how others behave, only over how YOU yourself behave.

I am not responsible for how you feel about something.
I am not responsible to your personal view on how "things should be".
I am not beholden to act as you in your head think I should.
You dont, and cant, control me, nor I you.

Its abhorrent to even think or attempt otherwise, and yet that is exactly what this thread is trying to defend.

Stop trying to dictate how others live their lives and how they choose to conduct themselves.


Eve Online Priest 2423546, preaching us Social Apathy 101.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#311 - 2014-03-15 14:15:07 UTC
It seems all of the latest protections and safeties for new players are doing more harm than good. When I was new, not that long ago, it was exciting to find out things the hard way.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Salvos Rhoska
#312 - 2014-03-15 14:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Goe Rilla wrote:
Eve Online Priest 2423546, preaching us Social Apathy 101.


It is the exact opposite.

I preach social awareness of, responsibility in and the autonomy of every single individual.

Nobody has the right to dictate to another person what is right or wrong, or how they should live.

You have it exactly backwards.

Who are you to dictate to another person what to believe in, how to live, or what choices they should make in their life?

Stop trying to violate and impinge upon the rights of other individuals to make their own choices.
Stop trying to tell other people how to live.
THAT is socially unacceptable, in the extreme, and you should stop it immediately.

There is NOTHING so socially abhorrent and offensive, as someone like you, trying to limit and restrict the free autonomy of another individual. It is no different than in Apartheid where people of different skin color are limited to using different facilities. It is no different than trying to restrict the political or religious beliefs of any one individual. It is no different than trying to restrict the equal liberties and freedom of women. In intent and act, your attempt to socially blackmail other free people into conforming to YOUR narrow personal view of how they should live their lives, is NO different than those.

I am being everything EXCEPT socially apathetic when I RESIST with every fibre of my will and body, your attempts to subvert and undermine the inalienable human rights to freedom of choice and to define their beliefs in life as they themselves best see fit.

So no, you are completely wrong, and it is infact you who are promoting social apathy, by not resisting the attempts of others like you who want to curtail and impinge upon the freedom and rights of others.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#313 - 2014-03-15 14:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Goe Rilla wrote:
Eve Online Priest 2423546, preaching us Social Apathy 101.

Stop trying to violate and impinge upon the rights of other individuals to make their own choices.
Stop trying to tell other people how to live.
THAT is socially unacceptable, in the extreme, and you should stop it immediately.


If those individual rights prevents and violates others to have those same rights, then you're damn right I will speak out for the one being unjustly and gratuitously violated against.

If I come into your home, take a **** on your carpet and **** your wife, I would take it as my individual right to do so, right ?

Get a ******* grip on the social empathy of things, even just a little.
Salvos Rhoska
#314 - 2014-03-15 14:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Goe Rilla wrote:

If those individual rights prevents and violates others to have those same rights, then you're damn right I will speak out for the one being unjustly violated against.

If I come into your home, take a **** on your carpet and **** your wife, I would take it as my individual right to do so, right ?

Get a ******* grip on the social empathy of things, even just a little.


Nobodys rights are being violated unjustly in the game, or by the game.

Your premise is false.

And there is NO SUCH THING as someones "individual rights prevents and violates others to have those same rights".

One persons rights do NOT prevent or violate anyone elses same rights.

You don't even understand the concepts you are speaking of.

Its you who needs to get to grips with "social empathy" and realise that you are in NO position to start dictating to another free individual how they should live their life.

If I come into your house and start forcing you and your family to live as I CHOOSE, if I start telling you and your family how YOU should live, would you like that? Would you like me there dictating what choices you should make, what is right and wrong for you, and how you and your family should live?

Because that is exactly what YOU are doing.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ryann Padecain
Doomheim
#315 - 2014-03-15 14:56:06 UTC
Does anyone else here has a suspicion that Divine Entervention is Harry Forever's retarde-d dad?
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#316 - 2014-03-15 14:57:11 UTC
this is getting heavy.
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#317 - 2014-03-15 14:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Goe Rilla wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Goe Rilla wrote:
Eve Online Priest 2423546, preaching us Social Apathy 101.

Stop trying to violate and impinge upon the rights of other individuals to make their own choices.
Stop trying to tell other people how to live.
THAT is socially unacceptable, in the extreme, and you should stop it immediately.


If those individual rights prevents and violates others to have those same rights, then you're damn right I will speak out for the one being unjustly violated against.

If I come into your home, take a **** on your carpet and **** your wife, I would take it as my individual right to do so, right ?

Get a ******* grip on the social empathy of things, even just a little.


Nobodys rights are being violated unjustly in the game.

Your premise is false.


There couldn't be more evidence of a premise, my friend...

Gratuitous and personal humiliations and verbal slander was proven a rampant fact in the game and Out of game also, if you re-read the OPs post or lately paying attention.

If you choose to flat-out deny that evidence, I wouldn't be sure why you would ?

Perhaps one would guess is that you're trying to euthanize your audience into thinking there is no such large sized invisible buddy's penis being inserted into their rectum...?
Helia Tranquilis
Confused Bunnies Inc
#318 - 2014-03-15 15:01:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
What should also be considered is the fact that players are the product of their time. Players who started 5-10 years ago aren't necessarily of the same generation of people or players. They may have grown in a different kind of world, and that has the potential to carry here to the game. HTFU has very different meaning to a 12-year-old (PEGI 12 game) than to a 30-year-old.
That is a fair point, but the question at that point is really if it should affect the design. Yes, parents can expect the game content (but not necessarily the interactions) to be non-offensive enough to suit a 12-year-old, but that doesn't mean it's actually a game for 12-year-olds. In practice, getting that rating is more a retail consideration — when releasing those boxed copies, it was needed in order for some outlets to carry the game. Also, ratings aside, EVE has always been a more adult game than your average MMO. Is that a bad thing? Or is it just a thing that needs to be communicated more clearly?
EVE is definitely an adult game, no doubt about that. What I wanted to point out was that you can expect part of the player base to consist of quite a young players. It is entirely possible that some of the loud reactions to griefs on the forums may as well be written by non-adult player. The harshness of this game requires certain character brought by maturity to be able to cope with.



As few have already commented, the existence of safety nets may hinder the hardening process, but in reality it is all about balance; how to ensure you aren't fooled to false feeling of safety and yet not being constantly rolf-stomped by certain groups.

One thing is certain: tutorials need to be completely reworked. Starting by bringing back the pod-express by Aura and make a nice and understandable video about the forms of emergent gameplay that the new player can expect to encounter on their first jump out of the starter system.
Salvos Rhoska
#319 - 2014-03-15 15:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Goe Rilla wrote:
There couldn't be more evidence of a premise, my friend...

Gratuitous and personal humiliations and verbal slander was proven a rampant fact in the game and Out of game also, if you re-read the OPs post or have been paying attention lately.


First of all. I am not your friend. I am not friends with people who are so socially twisted and selfish as to presume they have any mandate or prerogative to dictate to other people how they should live their autonomous lives.

Second of all, you don't have a right to not be humiliated for your mistakes. No such right exists.
Where did you get it into your head that such a right exists? Care to cite me a legal source that says so?

Do you even know what "slander" means?
"A false defamation (expressed in spoken words, signs, or gestures) which injures the character or reputation of the person defamed; distinguished from libel."
It is VERBAL, as distinguished from libel, which is written. Which means NOTHING THAT IS WRITTEN can constitute slander.
So where is this verbal slander you refer to happening? In private 3rd party voice chats? Those are no business of CCPs, and being in those channels is entirely on your own responsibility and recognisance.

The law supercedes EVE. If someone violates the law, that is obviously an issue where another autonomous individuals rights have been breached by ANOTHER INDIVIDUALS ACTIONS, but NOT BY THAT OTHER INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS.

If someone is verbally speaking slander about your actual PERSON, then by all means, go ahead and report them to your local police.

CCP has absolutely zero responsibility for or control of what happens outside of the game.

Are you so juvenile or uneducated that you cannot distinguish the difference in definitions of these concepts and terms?

You are like a child talking about adult issues. You clearly have zero understand of what your rights actually are, and what those same rights actually are in others. Like a child whos idea of rights is limited to "i was nice and did as I was told to the best of my understanding, that means I now have the right to that piece of candy as a reward".

How exactly are peoples rights being violated ingame?
You say that There couldn't be more evidence of a premise"

Be specific.
Give me 3 examples.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Goe Rilla
Quantum Force Inc.
DammFam
#320 - 2014-03-15 15:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Goe Rilla
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You don't have a right to not be humiliated for your mistakes.


Well, who gave you the right to humiliate in the first place ? Your individual self yes ?

So why stop me wanting my individual self and right to NOT be humiliated, even for my mistakes, if that's what I want my individual right to be ?

Quote:
Do you even know what "slander" means?


Don't start on me there.

Quote:
The law supercedes EVE. If someone violates the law, that is obviously an issue where another autonomous individuals rights have been breached by ANOTHER INDIVIDUALS ACTIONS, but NOT BY THAT OTHER INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS.

CCP has absolutely zero responsibility for or control of what happens outside of the game.

Are you so juvenile or uneducated that you cannot distinguish the difference in definitions of these concepts and terms?

You are like a child talking about adult issues. You clearly have zero understand of what your rights actually are, and what those same rights actually are in others. Like a child whos idea of rights is limited to "i was nice and did as I was told to the best of my understanding, that means I now have the right to that piece of candy as a reward".


I could have told you about my individually-given right to not take any ad-hominen **** from anybody, had it been a real life interaction there, I would've judged it right to a good kick in the face for that, knowing it well deserved to receive the humiliating pain you would most likely not want to receive as an individual...

Quote:
How exactly are peoples rights being violated ingame?

Be specific.
Give me 3 examples.
Either do that or remove yourself.


Read my reply to the first quote.