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[Serious Discussion] This game's community leaves much to be desired

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Marvin Shields
Division 156
#1 - 2014-03-14 05:48:32 UTC
Making my first post on the forums ever, so bear with me here...

I'll admit I have my faults, but seeing someone comment on a Reddit post, and the massive sh*tstorm that followed, got me thinking...

This is a game where we cannot die for good, and where the rules are pretty much removed, which gives us a lot of "creative" freedom.

Why is all of that creativity and freedom being used to harass new players? I just don't understand it.

We want this game to thrive and succeed. We want big things for this game. It's gone on a year, with more people joining and staying every year than the one before it. We have statistics that prove this.

... But do we have any that show how many have left? Or why they left? Why doesn't CCP have an exit survey for those who never finished their trial, or who subbed for a month but never came back, or who played for X years but stopped altogether?

I have in my very long Eve career seen some of the most venomous, most vindictive people in gaming. Bear in mind, I played Ultima Online back when it came out and for many years following that, and that was THE game that started the open-world community-driven content MMO genre. Eve may be more polished and may have a greater following and has lasted a HELL of a lot longer, but UO was where it allllll started kids. I remember when Lord British was murdered. I wasn't there, but I remember the ICQ messages from my guild mates telling me what happened the next day.

Even in UO where you could kill anyone you wanted and where craftiness could get you around the in-game NPC guards (Think CONCORD) after stealing **** or killing someone in the middle of town, there was a code of honor or ethics or whatever you want to call it. I am not talking about a bunch of neckbeard-stroking nerds crafting official decrees, I mean just PEOPLE who had an agreement that being dicks to one another ALL THE TIME just isn't fun. Even the PK's who'd run around Fofofofo'ing while flinging explosion potions and hurling energy bolts at new players, one-shotting them, would ressurrect the ghost of the player and give them a bit of gold. Maybe I have a selective memory, but that's what it was like.


Enough with that old dinosaur game though, let's talk Eve.

We have thousands of people online at any given time. Of those thousands we have a good portion of them who want to play the game the way they want to play it, be it exploring, mining, PVE, market stuff, production, etc. They can be casuals, they can be hardcore, they just generally don't engage in PVP unless THEY WANT TO or if they are forced to defend themselves. These people keep to Highsec, occasionally daytripping to low/null/WH space for fun/adventure or to fatten their wallets.

Then you have another huge portion who enjoy PVP, who reap the benefit of living in dangerous space and living around dangerous people, but who help one another and who actually try to make the game fun for others, while engaging in fleet or solo warfare for the purpose of fun or conquest.

Then you have the a-holes, as the gentleman on Reddit so adequately phrased it. I can see why people wouldn't take kindly to being called a-holes, but when you go around with the sole purpose of "harvesting tears" as you guys call it, it's not easy to find a more fitting name than *******.

... You guys are the reason people don't want to play this game. You are why on news posts about Eve you see comments like "I love reading about Eve, but I never want to play it". It's not always the learning curve, folks.

Yeah it makes content, these "jihad fleets" and Hulkageddon, but really, you're just crapping on the parades of hundreds/thousands of people who just want to enjoy the game they're paying a sub for, or who are just starting out.

Case in point: Destiny. This guy, a SCII commentator (Whatever the hell that is, is that an occupation these days? You mean I waste my time managing a server farm while this guy gets paid to talk about Starcraft?), decided to stream his new entry into Eve, and people camped his starting station, suicide ganking him every time he'd undock. And high-fives were thrown around, cheers were had, Jabber broadcasts were made with "DUNK THIS F*GGOT" as the closing line, etc. I read dozens of threads here, on Kugu, on Reddit, and on *other message boards* where people were actually cheering because someone was being driven out of the game, a game they'd never played.

What kind of attitude is that? This IS a game that takes pride in being reckless and rule-free (Mostly), but are we as a community going to accept that as writ and let it slide?

Then you have this guy, Daionnis. He complained on Reddit about how this game is full of assholes who love nothing more than to ruin peoples' gameplay experience. An apt observation! But the comments on his post just made my jaw drop. Not a single positive comment or really anyone agreeing with him, it was like standing knee-deep in a pool of juvenile insecurity and chestbeating. I've never been more ashamed of this community. I know Reddit's Eve community doesn't represent all or really any significant part of Eve's population, but it's still a damn shame when someone making a valid point (There is no such thing as "leave me alone" in this game) is getting trampled in the comments below him because the little children cannot bear to be called out for what they are, assholes who like to hurt people for fun.

Now, I am not calling anyone here an *******. I was just using his word. But really, c'mon. Are we as a community really that freaking self-absorbed that we cannot say "Hey, maybe purposefully ruining peoples' experience in-game should be where we stop short and draw the line"?

We had a CSM chairman literally stand on-stage and tell people to harass an ISBoxing ice miner, who had voiced concerns about suicidal thoughts in a message to him, with the hopes that the guy would actually hurt himself. (Cont'd)
Marvin Shields
Division 156
#2 - 2014-03-14 05:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Marvin Shields
And what happened? What happened that day? Gaming press ate it up. Holy crap I remember Eurogamer, IGN, everyone talking about Alexander "The Mittani" Gianturco goading an audience of Eve players into harassing a suicidal man to hopefully see him go over the edge.

What happened in the audience though shocked me; Instead of being booed off the stage (Which is what I'd have attempted to do if I were in the audience), he was met with laughter and applause.

Because that's the people who play this game. Or at least the ones who are most visible, most audible, and most rampant, because the people who instigate this behavior within the game allow the behavior to creep and spread within their ranks.

It's bogus, and I as an Eve player for going on seven years now will not stand for it.

I am calling for a cultural revolution within Eve.

I am so optimistic this thread is going to be filled with positive, uplifting comments talking about the evil within this game and how we can stamp it out, but then again I am also under the influence of sleeping pills so that might be them at work. I am ninety percent sure.

Daionnis wanted "safe space" where nobody can be ganked, or messed with while doing missions. That's never going to happen because there's no CCP could balance out "safe space" while still providing reliable means to gain income or anything else worthwhile. Danger = reward, that's true in all games.

The problem isn't with gameplay or mechanics, it's not something CCP can program away without breaking everything; The problem is with the people.

Assholes run amok, unchecked, unsullied and not bothered by anyone's complaints. They capture vulnerable players and force them to sing on Teamspeak in return for safe passage, humiliating them in the process, for their own enjoyment and then kill them after anyway because "It's Eve, HTFU noob LOLOLOLOL".

We have message boards with sections dedicated to sharing embarassing selfies taken by ransomed pilots, some of them extorting nude pics or other demeaning crap, all for the enjoyment and amusement of other pilots who engage in these activities.

This is NOT OKAY!

None of this is okay!

It has to stop.

People are leaving this game, daily, because they cannot handle the harassment, the griefing, the scamming, and the constant fear of losing everything they own or a chunk of their paycheck because of some opportunistic ass with an itchy F1 finger.

I'm not an alt of James Arget and I am not running for CSM, so believe me when I say this **** needs to go.

Thoughts?!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-03-14 05:57:16 UTC
You have written an excellent post and I applaud you for taking the time to put forth your opinions about a subject you appear to feel strongly about.

I wish this thread and you the best of luck and I hope that your experiences are overall positive and make you happy.
Kyperion
#4 - 2014-03-14 06:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Marvin Shields wrote:

What happened in the audience though shocked me; Instead of being booed off the stage (Which is what I'd have attempted to do if I were in the audience), he was met with laughter and applause.

Because that's the people who play this game. Or at least the ones who are most visible, most audible, and most rampant, because the people who instigate this behavior within the game allow the behavior to creep and spread within their ranks.


Pretty much. Especially on the forums it seems like EVE is a refuge for the refuse of humanity, like Mos Eisley from Star Wars, EVE is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

But its also mechanically one of the best Space ship games around, and graphically amazing which is why I keep coming back to it.


Edit: Fixed actual quoting. ISD Ezwal.
Lugia3
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#5 - 2014-03-14 06:04:38 UTC
That's like going into a vegetarian convention while eating a hamburger. What do you expect when walking to the section for EvE players?

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Django Askulf
Best Kept Dunked
#6 - 2014-03-14 06:13:16 UTC
Marvin Shields wrote:


It's bogus, and I as an Eve player for going on seven years now will not stand for it.

Thoughts?!


Can I have all your stuff?
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#7 - 2014-03-14 06:16:56 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Especially on the forums it seems like EVE is a refuge for the refuse of humanity,

-1
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-03-14 06:55:29 UTC
I think my experience in the game has been different. There are intelligent people everywhere, and many of them go the extra mile to help you, provided you are able to help yourself. I love how connected corp mates are socially, through Jabber and Mumble.

/蘭

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-03-14 07:09:27 UTC
Yeah lol. Hanging with some guys who are trying to set up a non kill everything in siight area in Stain. We have up to 7 perma-residing hot droppers at various times who's only goal is to annoy. They don't even drop lol.

One was today suggesting I'm a pedo watching childporn because I ignored it in local. We just ignore them but that's pretty much the mentality that CCP has fostered in its memberbase.

Few months ago NC. lured a guy recovering from cancer on the pretext he could join their alliance and blew him and all his stuff up for lols.

Another group humiliated some guy on team speak, recorded it and posted it to the general public.

Some of these people are literally the shitestains of humanity and seem incapable of separating real life from a video game and they seem proud of it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2014-03-14 07:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ehm… I'm fairly certain that they do have an exit survery, and I know for a fact that they do have numbers on how many have left because they've referred to them on multiple occasions.

As for your general complaint, you realise that harassment and griefing are bannable offences right?
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Victor Andall
#11 - 2014-03-14 07:13:16 UTC
You're equating a niche of players, however broad, to the entire community.

That's a fallacy.

Mean people will always be more vocal than the ones that mind their own business and even strive to be helpful toward others. You're doing yourself no services by projecting the action of one category of players on everyone else.

People get that this is how the game is and live with it.

And in waltz you throwing accusations at everyone indiscriminately, insulting everyone because some people have a personality you don't like.

This is why we can't have nice things.

I feel like I've learned more about the game in the 6 months that I've been playing than you have in your seven years.

And now to address the Mittani incident as you mentioned it. BECAUSE **** ME IF WE HAVEN'T BEEN OVER THAT A BAJILLION TIMES YET.

I confess, this fallacy was so horribly blatant that I just stopped reading right then and there.

Because no matter that you go on saying that those are the people that are most visible and blah blah.

You're making EVERYONE here responsible for the audience's reaction. To a guy's drunken words. At a game convention. Some years ago.

TL;DR stop playing with a-holes

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.

Marvin Shields
Division 156
#12 - 2014-03-14 07:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Tippia wrote:
Ehm… I'm fairly certain that they do have an exit survery, and I know for a fact that they do have numbers on how many have left because they've referred to them on multiple occasions.

As for your general complaint, you realise that harassment and griefing are bannable offences right?
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.



I don't recall reading any metrics on amount of people who have left and for X reason.

And yet it happens! The report function exists but it persists. Hell the report function gets abused to the point I'm sure the GM's don't even care anymore. Same crap happened in WoW while my old roommate played it, she got offended by a player's handle, something along the lines of IKILLGAYS or something, and reported it. It took two months for the person to get a forced name change...

I could be wrong and totally talking out my ass here, but you know it happens. It's not super secret.

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#13 - 2014-03-14 07:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Marvin Shields wrote:
I don't recall reading any metrics on amount of people who have left and for X reason.
The last mention I can think of is in the CSM9 summer minutes, iirc. It's usually a pretty big part in any discussion about the NPE.

Incidentally, the leading cause for people quitting is trying to go it alone and treating the game as your average content-consumption themepark game.

Quote:
And yet it happens! The report function exists but it persists. Hell the report function gets abused to the point I'm sure the GM's don't even care anymore. Same crap happened in WoW
…and I think that's where the disconnect is: this is not WoW. What people think of as griefing and harassment is vastly different in EVE than it is elsewhere. If you start actually drilling down into the complains made about EVE and its environment, you will inevitably find that it consists in large part of people who simply had their preconceived notions shattered in regards to how they think an MMO works.

They somehow miss that this is a full-PvP multiplayer sandbox, and assume that it will work exactly the same as a PvE-centric themepark game, and when reality intrudes on them, it's a rude awakening. This is not a problem with the game or its players — it's a problem with those preconceived notions.

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#14 - 2014-03-14 07:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Some people simply have poisonous mentalities. B*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Some of us have more positive attitudes. Ever wonder what happens when carebears leave hisec?

So tonight I smuggled a blank jump clone into nullsec, found a nice spot to do some ratting, had a little fun with that. When it was done I was staring at like fifty wrecks and realizing that my Noctis was still safe in hisec. Shrugged, headed to the nearest station, saw a guy in a Noctis parked right outside.

I led him over to my pile of wrecks, made them all blue just to be safe, and told him to have fun looting it all.

The hard part is sifting through the sludge to find the few decent people, I guess. But we're still out there, fighting the only fight that really matters - the fight to keep our sense of common decency no matter what the toxic slime of the world throws at us.

Of course tomorrow I'll be jumping back to hisec and taking a very long shower.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Marvin Shields
Division 156
#15 - 2014-03-14 07:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Victor Andall wrote:


You're making EVERYONE here responsible for the audience's reaction. To a guy's drunken words. At a game convention. Some years ago.



>>CSM Chairman two years running (I think?)
>>Leader of largest organized group of gamers in gaming history
>>Has been featured on legitimate news publications

Yep. "A guy".

Not to give Mittens an even bigger ego for his minions to stroke, but he's the most memorable name in the entire community, and a name more non-players can easily run into if they read the occasional Eve-related news article. Especially recently.

Sorry, are we supposed to take the words THE MOST PROMINENT EVE PLAYER IN EVE HISTORY let spew forth from his mouth and just cast them aside BECAUSE HE WAS DRUNK?

Like, I know this is a videogame, but this **** happened in real life*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Would that be excusable since he was drunk?

Is there also a statute of limitations on how long ago we can hold someone accountable for advocating harassing a player to the point of possible suicide?

It's not that I hold a grudge, I wouldn't buy the guy a drink certainly, but it's not like he's some Joe Average random Capsuleer whose cheese slipped off the cracker during the Alliance Panel. That's inexcusable. It was an embarrassment to the community *Snip* Please refrain from discussing GM decisions. ISD Ezwal.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#16 - 2014-03-14 07:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
That is a really strange mental state to pay for one game you don't enjoy playing just to have a forums to announce you are waiting for it to die when another game will finally be released.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Invalid signature format

Marvin Shields
Division 156
#17 - 2014-03-14 07:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
That is a really strange mental state to pay for one game you don't enjoy playing just to have a forums to announce you are waiting for it to die when another game will finally be released.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.



I enjoy playing this game. My characters are each specialized to their roles and each have their spots in various corporations and alliances in New Eden. I play the Meta very well as well. I pay a sub for my accounts because I support the development of the game and it's side projects (Dust, Valkyrie).

I never said I am waiting for it to die nor did I say I hope another game takes it's place, I said I am looking forward to the day the bittervets *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. realize they don't have anymore carebears to harass because they all got sick of their **** and moved to brighter horizons.

Also, I am not trying to revive "Mittanigate" (Why does everything have to end in "-gate"?), that was just the most obvious example I could think of.

I'm getting some goddamn sleep. I'll see you all tomorrow.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#18 - 2014-03-14 07:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Marvin Shields wrote:
I said I am looking forward to the day the bittervets *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. realize they don't have anymore carebears to harass because they all got sick of their **** and moved to brighter horizons.


You mean a day when Eve will finally get audience it deserves? Cool, let's wait together.

Invalid signature format

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2014-03-14 07:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Marvin Shields wrote:
I never said I am waiting for it to die nor did I say I hope another game takes it's place, I said I am looking forward to the day the bittervets *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. realize they don't have anymore carebears to harass because they all got sick of their **** and moved to brighter horizons.

The thing is, if they wanted to do that, they could have done so a long time ago. So the implied threat of people leaving en masse has very little bite to it. If they haven't already, why would they suddenly make a completely different decision?
Victor Andall
#20 - 2014-03-14 08:20:05 UTC
Bottom line, really, in my opinion, is that if you play a game for social gratification, you're off to a bad start nonetheless.

You think EVE is bad? Log into XBox Live one day.

So some people extort and gank and bump your ship and "force" you to sing on Teamspeak in order to let you go.

So?

******* sing. Or just say no and get your ship blown up. Hell, get your pod blown up while you're at it. It doesn't need to change who you are. If it does, your problems are rooted more deeply than the space submarine pewpewlazors game we're playing here.

Every single case of player grievance in regards to other players boils down to not following that single most important EVE rule.

Never risk something you're not willing to lose. Be it ships, time, money or dignity (to needlessly dramatize), if you don't want to lose it, don't risk it. I've shrugged off more losses than I'd liked to in my short career as an EVE player and I intend to shrug off more.

EVE is not real.

EVE is game.

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.

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