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[Serious Discussion] This game's community leaves much to be desired

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#201 - 2014-03-15 06:39:44 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:


Once again these issues are reduced to a question about a single pilot or a single corp. My interest is the combined result of the interaction between the different styles of play in the game.

I don't wish to complain. I'm sad to see the potential of the game being wasted as a whole. It is very difficult to run a non-combat corp in high sec of significant size. Not because it's dangerous, but because non-combat players find high sec combat boring.

A high sec war is the combat culture imposing on the non-combat. The combat culture impose on the non-combat on their own terms. They change the play for the non-combat to better fit the combat. I do not disaprove of this.

What is lacking is the non-combat culture being able to impose itself on the combat culture on the non-combat terms. Maybe it should be possible to exclude for a period, certain pilots and/or corporations that has become a menace to the industries of high sec? Or just make them legit targets for anyone in high sec for a period.

This could be used instead of a limit to the number of war decs. The more wars, the cheaper it becomes to use this tool. High sec needs mechanics to effectively police itself. The non-combat culture needs tools to bring the dangerous and challenging environment to the combat culture on it's own terms using non-combat tools.


So your plan is to get CCP to do all the protecting for you by banning people who attack you from high sec.

See this is exactly why people like you get shafted time after time. You do nothing to protect yourself and think that CCP should be protecting you. This game is not like that, if you want protection then you have to do it yourself, there are more than enough tools in game to defend yourself with.


No, I want tools that fit the specialization, otherwise the pilots will become more like each other in SP distribution and kind of activity.

I want to discuss ways to adjust the balance between war deccers and their targets in high sec. I don't believe that it is sufficient to call for a cultural revolution if the conditions for such a revolution are not present. In EVE these conditions are given by CCP.

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.

Maybe CCP is happy with the balance as it is, in that case I'll probly not return to EVE anytime soon. Or maybe I'll return from time to time to engage in PVP, but find other games to enjoy gaming experiences I previously found more available in EVE. There is nothing raging about that either. I find it sad that CCP may not want to support gaming experiences that are more casual. EVE used to offer a more varied experience when it comes to required attention.

Whether or not I'm getting shafted is irrelevant. If I fail to adapt I should still get consequenses on the individual level.

I really have to point out that the "non-combat" characters have far more effective defenses and tools at their disposal now than at any time in the past. You make it sound as if things are getting worse for the industrialist, when in fact conditions are much, much more favorable for them now.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#202 - 2014-03-15 06:43:17 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:
I want to discuss ways to adjust the balance between war deccers and their targets in high sec. I don't believe that it is sufficient to call for a cultural revolution if the conditions for such a revolution are not present. In EVE these conditions are given by CCP.

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.
How is it unbalanced and what tools do you think you're lacking?
Karon Grandolf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2014-03-15 06:48:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.


Those already exist. Few people use them correctly anyway. You don't need more safety because you're not properly using the safety you already have.


If they exist but people rarely use them correctly, maybe there's something about them that makes them unsuitable or difficult to use?

This is where hard data would be nice to have. Otherwise its just personal experience and HTFU etc.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#204 - 2014-03-15 06:50:57 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.


Those already exist. Few people use them correctly anyway. You don't need more safety because you're not properly using the safety you already have.


If they exist but people rarely use them correctly, maybe there's something about them that makes them unsuitable or difficult to use?

This is where hard data would be nice to have. Otherwise its just personal experience and HTFU etc.


People are just stupid, lazy, greedy, or all 3.

They're not too hard to use, they're just not mindlessly easy.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2014-03-15 07:04:01 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.


Those already exist. Few people use them correctly anyway. You don't need more safety because you're not properly using the safety you already have.


If they exist but people rarely use them correctly, maybe there's something about them that makes them unsuitable or difficult to use?

This is where hard data would be nice to have. Otherwise its just personal experience and HTFU etc.

Nah you're being trolled. Both Kalrus and Trippia are resident forum trolls.

They don't exist. We have a system in which a 2 million isk easy to train ship can put out 700 dps easily. The issue is not miners its the Catalyst. They were designed to be frigate destroyers, there is no reason they need 700 dps for a frigate. Its a broken ship.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2014-03-15 07:08:41 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.


Those already exist. Few people use them correctly anyway. You don't need more safety because you're not properly using the safety you already have.


If they exist but people rarely use them correctly, maybe there's something about them that makes them unsuitable or difficult to use?

This is where hard data would be nice to have. Otherwise its just personal experience and HTFU etc.

Nah you're being trolled. Both Kalrus and Trippia are resident forum trolls.

They don't exist. We have a system in which a 2 million isk easy to train ship can put out 700 dps easily. The issue is not miners its the Catalyst. They were designed to be frigate destroyers, there is no reason they need 700 dps for a frigate. Its a broken ship.


A gank was attempted on my mining alt with less than 10mil SP last week. The ECM I had fitted, along with the ECM drones, easily jammed his Catalyst.

Can't apply 700dps if you can't lock anything. I don't see what's broken here...

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#207 - 2014-03-15 07:08:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Nah you're being trolled. Both Kalrus and Trippia are resident forum trolls.
Do you have anything to prove this claim?

Quote:
They don't exist. We have a system in which a 2 million isk easy to train ship can put out 700 dps easily.
Wow. That's a vast improvement over what was available only months ago. Could you provide a fitting?

And what makes you think that tanking modules, local, contact lists, maps, chat channels, ISK, support ships and other players (just to mention a few) don't exist?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#208 - 2014-03-15 07:09:20 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

I don't want CCP to protect high sec dwellers, I want tools so that high sec dwellers can protect themselves sufficiently to adjust the forementioned balance.


Those already exist. Few people use them correctly anyway. You don't need more safety because you're not properly using the safety you already have.


If they exist but people rarely use them correctly, maybe there's something about them that makes them unsuitable or difficult to use?

This is where hard data would be nice to have. Otherwise its just personal experience and HTFU etc.

Nah you're being trolled. Both Kalrus and Trippia are resident forum trolls.

They don't exist. We have a system in which a 2 million isk easy to train ship can put out 700 dps easily. The issue is not miners its the Catalyst. They were designed to be frigate destroyers, there is no reason they need 700 dps for a frigate. Its a broken ship.


I would love to see the fit that costs 2 million isk and does 700 dps.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#209 - 2014-03-15 07:09:31 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Erotica 1 wrote:
I propose this thread gets locked because OP is attacking the community- ranting, trolling, and surely a couple more things.

I propose that you're proposing this thread gets locked because its exposed the obvious truth about the game, gankers and general asshats in game...


In a similar manner to how you always howl about calling the mods when it's continually pointed out to you that you relentlessly lie about everything, and have no clue what you're talking about?

Or perhaps it's because it shows that the gankers and the asshats (with a few notable exceptions) are in fact two separate groups. Big smile

On a more serious note, as I've said before, if you didn't have the "bad guys" to wail and gnash your teeth about you wouldn't enjoy the game nearly as much. Once this bit of self realization hits home, you will find inner harmony. Smile


That realization never sets in for some people.

I remember back when some people had the "omg, Star Trek Online is gonna kill EVE" hysteria going on (it's gone by many names, Black Prophecy, Jump Gate, EVERY Star Wars MMO, now Star Citizen and secondarily, Elite). People were all like "STO is gonna kill EVE because it has spaceships, won't allow 'griefing', and will have avatar gameplay ect ect".

My retort was generally along the lines of " you don't understand that you don't play EVE just for space ships, but for how valuable things are due to the universal danger of losing stuff" and so forth. They didn't believe me. When STO launched they hailed the 1 million subs it had...for a month or 2...as proof of what they were saying.....

It was the last thing any of them said on the subject, for while they left EVe for STO in thunder and fury, they generally slinked back to EVE (and posting about how the next game was going to kill EVE) in near total silence and bitterness lol. They got bored very quickly being wrapped in the protective cotton of a 'standard' thempark MMO. But did they learn the erro of their ways?

Of course not, they just said 'well, STO sucked, but someone will do it right one day'.

It's like a bad episode of Battlestar Galactica with the narrator saying "this has all happened before, and will happen again" lol.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#210 - 2014-03-15 07:13:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


It's like a bad episode of Battlestar Galactica with the narrator saying "this has all happened before, and will happen again" lol.


This is blasphemy. There is no such thing as a bad episode of BSG and insinuating that there ever was one should be punishable by death.

You go to hell.

You go to hell and you die.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#211 - 2014-03-15 07:14:55 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
This is blasphemy. There is no such thing as a bad episode of BSG and insinuating that there ever was one should be punishable by death.

You go to hell.

You go to hell and you die.

Black Market. Check. Your move.
Karon Grandolf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2014-03-15 07:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Karon Grandolf
Ranger1 wrote:
I really have to point out that the "non-combat" characters have far more effective defenses and tools at their disposal now than at any time in the past. You make it sound as if things are getting worse for the industrialist, when in fact conditions are much, much more favorable for them now.


This may or may not be true. My primary concern has been the war mechanic, that is no upper limit on the amount of corps that can be war decced at the same time by the same entity. I believe that relatively more gametime is now played under high sec war than before the changes. I also believe that there are more isolated players now than before, in NPC or very small (one player) corps. My experience tells me it's getting worse.

I could be wrong and asked for information about this. My questions was dismissed by C C P Manifest.

Tippia wrote:
How is it unbalanced and what tools do you think you're lacking?


I think the balance between game time spend during involuntary war vs. game time spend during voluntary peace has been changed so that it negatively influence the average subscription time of new players. I have only my own experience and forum posts as evidence, and have asked for more.

I want tools that can force peace on a war deccer, just as a war deccer can force war. I want a war force and a peace force competing against each other in high sec. I want this competition be balanced so that both game experiences are available to the players in sufficient amount to keep more new players subscribed. I want this balance on the macro level, as an avarage.

One such tool could be to remove the Concord security of agressive war deccers for a limited time and a fee.

On a personal level I am unhappy with the current balance and for certain types of gaming experiences I use other games where I previously used EVE. This may be a personal thing of course, and if this reaction is limited it may not hurt the game at all.

In that case there's no reason to change anything, I just won't be playing EVE that much. I think I would become more griefer like in the sense that i would occasionally subscribe to engage in agressive high sec PVP.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#213 - 2014-03-15 07:19:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
This is blasphemy. There is no such thing as a bad episode of BSG and insinuating that there ever was one should be punishable by death.

You go to hell.

You go to hell and you die.

Black Market. Check. Your move.

That chick who was bangin Apollo. Any show with an image of her cannot be bad.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#214 - 2014-03-15 07:21:19 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
That chick who was bangin Apollo. Any show with an image of her cannot be bad.
Show, sure. Didn't save the episode.

The Woman King. Checkmate.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#215 - 2014-03-15 07:21:43 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:

One such tool could be to remove the Concord security of agressive war deccers for a limited time and a fee.


Are you ****ing kidding? You do realize that you can legally shoot them back, right? With no consequences.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#216 - 2014-03-15 07:27:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
That chick who was bangin Apollo. Any show with an image of her cannot be bad.
Show, sure. Didn't save the episode.

The Woman King. Checkmate.


Your quick retort led me to believe your interest in the show is ingenuine and you've performed a search to give you a platform to launch an assault.

I found this, it stands out:

http://www.girlsofgeek12.com/15/post/2012/08/the-five-worst-episodes-of-battlestar-galactica.html

I'll say because I'm a lawful individual, it was nice seeing people who perform crime, even in space, being brought to justice.
a newbie
Kenbishi Heavy Industries Inc.
#217 - 2014-03-15 07:28:46 UTC
As I sit back on the couch and look around, the display in front of me posts bounty after bounty. Each of them someone that has managed to **** someone off more than once. Most of the times they just happen to be someone of notoriety and of little consequence to direct actions taken by them.

Maybe they scammed someone, maybe they ransomed another, or they organized the collapse of your entire civilization. The point being the bounty system is there for a reason. It has been having some great effects as a result. Yes new players may not immediately find it but we (the community) have been helping CCP with requests through our CSMs for 'Small Things' here and there that help both old and new players alike. Maybe they can elevate knowledge of the bounties to new players.

I think the other problem is what you expect coming into an MMO that is hands off. A really GREAT anime on the topic of human nature in a rules free environment is Sword Art Online. Whether or not the art or genre fit your tastes, the detail the writers took in showing what they feel the chaos that would ensue seems a dead on read of people.

In the series, players are trapped in a virtual world, so players eventually become their ideal characters through behavior they would play in a normal game. You have Pkers, exploiters, people challenging sleeping players to a duel and moving their arms to accept duel and killing them. Some of them went so much as to scout as a neutral and be the target hunter for a murderous group of pkers. Some went the other way and were overly generous and blah blah hero stuff, and yet even more holed up in the cities and just 'existed'.

I think coming into a game that is hands off should be understood that it wouldn't feel right if we DIDN'T have people ransoming ships or extracting humility and tears from weaker people. Its not that I think its the greatest way to recruit players, but frankly its just as much a recruiting tool as it is a woe for new players. I have myself recruited far more people into EVE with the lure of violence and espionage than I have with mining and missions.

...um.. fire?
Karon Grandolf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2014-03-15 07:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Karon Grandolf
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

One such tool could be to remove the Concord security of agressive war deccers for a limited time and a fee.


Are you ****ing kidding? You do realize that you can legally shoot them back, right? With no consequences.


That's exactly what I realize. Shooting back has very little consequence for the war deccers, that is one of the big problems. It is the war deccers that are being protected by Concord as it is right now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#219 - 2014-03-15 07:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Divine Entervention wrote:
Your quick retort led me to believe your interest in the show is ingenuine and you've performed a search to give you a platform to launch an assault.
No, that's just your prejudice speaking.

Quote:
I'll say because I'm a lawful individual
Lol No.
You are an individual who has demonstrated that you approve of real-life harm coming to people who play games. That is pretty far removed from “lawful” and pretty close to needing serious medication and possibly incarceration.


Karon Grandolf wrote:
That's exactly what I realize. Shooting back has very little consequence for the war deccers, that is one of the big problems. It is the war deccers that are being protected by Concord as it is right now.

Ehm… the whole point of the wardec is that they're no longer protected by CONCORD.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#220 - 2014-03-15 07:33:07 UTC
Karon Grandolf wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Karon Grandolf wrote:

One such tool could be to remove the Concord security of agressive war deccers for a limited time and a fee.


Are you ****ing kidding? You do realize that you can legally shoot them back, right? With no consequences.


That's exactly what I realize. Shooting back has very little consequence for the war deccers, that is one of the big problems. It is the war deccers that are being protected by Concord as it is right now.


Neither of them are. You can shoot at each other freely.

The defending corp can also call in allies to their side without an upper limit on numbers.

The defender is, assuming they are at all competent, at an advantage during a wardec. And if they're not competent, then they deserve to dissolve or be docked up the whole time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.