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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-01-22 11:46:12 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:

I might not get it but why wouldn´t I just fit normal small missile launchers?

and still have the fitting bennefit?


Because you would not get the hull bonuses to damage when fitting light missile launcher to a cruiser, and you would with RLMLs.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#142 - 2014-01-22 11:49:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

So overpowered that its sales all around new eden dropped 48%? Its such a horrible system that we woudl probably kick any member of ours if it flew with those things.


Look, those people just haven't learned to like it yet. Rest assured, CCP know that another scandal or unnecessary change is coming, and this particular problem will soon be forgotten in the face of something else they decide to break just for the hell of it.
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-01-22 12:18:45 UTC
Careful you guys dont whine these launchers into OP hell\heaven...they will change\break the game.
Burst damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sustained dps.

Compare burst damage dealers in other games and you will see how they change the meta,careful what you wish for.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2014-01-22 13:19:38 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

So overpowered that its sales all around new eden dropped 48%? Its such a horrible system that we woudl probably kick any member of ours if it flew with those things.


Look, those people just haven't learned to like it yet. Rest assured, CCP know that another scandal or unnecessary change is coming, and this particular problem will soon be forgotten in the face of something else they decide to break just for the hell of it.



we know a thing or 2 about small scale PVP, and we do not allow our members to use such horrible and useless weapon.. for a reason. Because its only effect its psycological. It is inferior to all other missile options on the absolute majority of realistic scenarios..

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2014-01-22 13:20:34 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Problem Identified: Ammo Swapping takes way, way too long, as pointed out by the community months ago.
Solution: Make ammo swapping only take way too long instead of way, way too long. Roll

:CCP:

So, I take it we can expect a reasonable RLML by Rubicon 1.4? How's that SoE BS coming btw?



no way community could have pointed that months ago since the missile changes have less than 2 months :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#146 - 2014-01-22 13:26:41 UTC
Here is a thought.

What if for each missile there was for instance a 2 second reload time. You have two choices, you could either load up a full salvo of 20 missiles and then fire all at once, which in this case would take you 40 seconds. Alternatively if you just need to quickly hit a target you could fire the salvo half way through the loading process which would fire 10 missiles and only take 20 seconds to reload.

I'm not sure if that is possible to code but it sounds like it would be quite fun to use. Then we can have a proper burst weapon with the flexibility and option during a reload still available for the pilot to fire their burst of missiles when they choose.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#147 - 2014-01-22 13:30:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

So overpowered that its sales all around new eden dropped 48%? Its such a horrible system that we woudl probably kick any member of ours if it flew with those things.


Look, those people just haven't learned to like it yet. Rest assured, CCP know that another scandal or unnecessary change is coming, and this particular problem will soon be forgotten in the face of something else they decide to break just for the hell of it.



we know a thing or 2 about small scale PVP, and we do not allow our members to use such horrible and useless weapon.. for a reason. Because its only effect its psycological. It is inferior to all other missile options on the absolute majority of realistic scenarios..

Don't underestimate the affect of a proper burst weapon. For the same reason alpha strike is often more important than overall dps, a proper burst missile system would be great for any missile user wanting to pvp. That said, I think this one still need some improvements until it is anywhere near on par with artillery like effectiveness for instance.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-01-22 13:50:53 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

So overpowered that its sales all around new eden dropped 48%? Its such a horrible system that we woudl probably kick any member of ours if it flew with those things.


Look, those people just haven't learned to like it yet. Rest assured, CCP know that another scandal or unnecessary change is coming, and this particular problem will soon be forgotten in the face of something else they decide to break just for the hell of it.



we know a thing or 2 about small scale PVP, and we do not allow our members to use such horrible and useless weapon.. for a reason. Because its only effect its psycological. It is inferior to all other missile options on the absolute majority of realistic scenarios..

Don't underestimate the affect of a proper burst weapon. For the same reason alpha strike is often more important than overall dps, a proper burst missile system would be great for any missile user wanting to pvp. That said, I think this one still need some improvements until it is anywhere near on par with artillery like effectiveness for instance.



Alpha strike is only relevant if it can KILL the target on that single shot. Same way for burst weapon (that given the standard in eve of high alpha weapons having low sustained DPS).

Do not underestaimate the fact that a LOT of people that REALLY know PVP have pointed how horrible this weapon system is in the absolute majority of cases.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2014-01-22 13:52:02 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Here is a thought.

What if for each missile there was for instance a 2 second reload time. You have two choices, you could either load up a full salvo of 20 missiles and then fire all at once, which in this case would take you 40 seconds. Alternatively if you just need to quickly hit a target you could fire the salvo half way through the loading process which would fire 10 missiles and only take 20 seconds to reload.

I'm not sure if that is possible to code but it sounds like it would be quite fun to use. Then we can have a proper burst weapon with the flexibility and option during a reload still available for the pilot to fire their burst of missiles when they choose.



woudl be more interesting, but probably much more complicated for them to implement and balance.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2014-01-22 13:54:54 UTC
Garak n00biachi wrote:
Careful you guys dont whine these launchers into OP hell\heaven...they will change\break the game.
Burst damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sustained dps.

Compare burst damage dealers in other games and you will see how they change the meta,careful what you wish for.



Blank statements.. devoid of scenario are as useful as a bag of salt in middle of the ocean.


Scenario: enemy ship has 100K EHP and will be able to jump in 100 seconds. You can choose 2 weapons. One is a very high alpha strike weapon.. that does 80K damage but that can fire once every 120 seconds. Other is a weapon that does 1.1K damage per shot, but shoot once per second.

Which one is useless?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#151 - 2014-01-22 13:56:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alpha strike is only relevant if it can KILL the target on that single shot. Same way for burst weapon (that given the standard in eve of high alpha weapons having low sustained DPS).

Do not underestaimate the fact that a LOT of people that REALLY know PVP have pointed how horrible this weapon system is in the absolute majority of cases.

I agree that indeed the current weapon system needs a lot of tweaking before it can actually be considered anywhere near on par with the effectiveness of artillery for example. I am just wondering why more good PVPers like you and your own corp are not more in favour of working with this burst mechanic for missiles.

I would say the concept which CCP Rise has put out is certainly sound and also needed for missiles to keep on par with gunnery systems. If anything all the angst should probalby be directed toward improving standard heavy missiles launchers instead of asking for RHML to be made into a replacement for them.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#152 - 2014-01-22 14:16:04 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Garak n00biachi wrote:
Careful you guys dont whine these launchers into OP hell\heaven...they will change\break the game.
Burst damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sustained dps.

Compare burst damage dealers in other games and you will see how they change the meta,careful what you wish for.



Blank statements.. devoid of scenario are as useful as a bag of salt in middle of the ocean.


Scenario: enemy ship has 100K EHP and will be able to jump in 100 seconds. You can choose 2 weapons. One is a very high alpha strike weapon.. that does 80K damage but that can fire once every 120 seconds. Other is a weapon that does 1.1K damage per shot, but shoot once per second.

Which one is useless?


Scenario 2, you have a friend too. However, the enemy ship has a MWD, you guys only have long points, so even with webs they'll jump in 40 seconds. Now which one is useless? The answer is neither is useless, just successful at different times.

Long point keres is great for first tackle on a large gate while heavy tackle retribution is useful to hold long enough for logi to save you from gate guns. Tools for a job.

Any scenario you contrive which gives the target time means sustained dps is better. Any scenario which reduces the time dramatically will then favour the burst/alpha, for the downtime that reduces it's sustained dps isn't spent in fight.
Omega Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-01-22 14:23:45 UTC
wtf rise??, just bring the old rapid lights and missiles in general to counter the ******* new inty meta. No one wants 40s missiles.

GOGOGOGOOGOG !!!!!!!!!

Do it before 1.2 pl0x
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2014-01-22 14:25:09 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Garak n00biachi wrote:
Careful you guys dont whine these launchers into OP hell\heaven...they will change\break the game.
Burst damage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sustained dps.

Compare burst damage dealers in other games and you will see how they change the meta,careful what you wish for.



Blank statements.. devoid of scenario are as useful as a bag of salt in middle of the ocean.


Scenario: enemy ship has 100K EHP and will be able to jump in 100 seconds. You can choose 2 weapons. One is a very high alpha strike weapon.. that does 80K damage but that can fire once every 120 seconds. Other is a weapon that does 1.1K damage per shot, but shoot once per second.

Which one is useless?


Scenario 2, you have a friend too. However, the enemy ship has a MWD, you guys only have long points, so even with webs they'll jump in 40 seconds. Now which one is useless? The answer is neither is useless, just successful at different times.

Long point keres is great for first tackle on a large gate while heavy tackle retribution is useful to hold long enough for logi to save you from gate guns. Tools for a job.

Any scenario you contrive which gives the target time means sustained dps is better. Any scenario which reduces the time dramatically will then favour the burst/alpha, for the downtime that reduces it's sustained dps isn't spent in fight.


At least now you have a scenario . My point is that blank STATEMENT LIKE THE ONE I QUOTED are useless and irrelevant.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2014-01-22 14:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alpha strike is only relevant if it can KILL the target on that single shot. Same way for burst weapon (that given the standard in eve of high alpha weapons having low sustained DPS).

Do not underestaimate the fact that a LOT of people that REALLY know PVP have pointed how horrible this weapon system is in the absolute majority of cases.

I agree that indeed the current weapon system needs a lot of tweaking before it can actually be considered anywhere near on par with the effectiveness of artillery for example. I am just wondering why more good PVPers like you and your own corp are not more in favour of working with this burst mechanic for missiles.

I would say the concept which CCP Rise has put out is certainly sound and also needed for missiles to keep on par with gunnery systems. If anything all the angst should probalby be directed toward improving standard heavy missiles launchers instead of asking for RHML to be made into a replacement for them.



Because in small scale PVP you usually CANNOT kill the enemy before you reload with rapid weapons. Therefore having a lower DPS becomes a very very bad tradeof.

When you have a blob, even a tiny blob of 12+ ships (yes 12 ships is a blob for me because it scales to the level where personal skills become less relevant) then alpha strike start to become relevant, because usually 12 alpha strike ships an kill another instance of the same ship in 1 volley, therefore gaining something from the alpha strike.

Even before the rapid laucnhers changes, the ONLY reason we used rapids were because of lower fittings.

We have no problem killing frigates with HAMs in our tengus, rapids were there only for range and better fittings.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#156 - 2014-01-22 14:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Because in small scale PVP you usually CANNOT kill the enemy before you reload with rapid weapons. Therefore having a lower DPS becomes a very very bad tradeof.

When you have a blob, even a tiny blob of 12+ ships (yes 12 ships is a blob for me because it scales to the level where personal skills become less relevant) then alpha strike start to become relevant, because usually 12 alpha strike ships an kill another instance of the same ship in 1 volley, therefore gaining something from the alpha strike.

Even before the rapid laucnhers changes, the ONLY reason we used rapids were because of lower fittings.

We have no problem killing frigates with HAMs in our tengus, rapids were there only for range and better fittings.

I see what you are saying, in those examples the burst option isn't going to be as effective as overall dps, but then the point still remains, why should missile users not have an option to deliver burst damage if the wish to. Of course if you are flying solo against a similar class of ship with equal tank then overall dps is often going to be a better choice. But against smaller targets, and in larger number, then at least we have the option to use these missiles.

Right now if the only reason to use rapids where due to a trade of between dps and lower fitting reqs then that seems a bit of a poor choice to me for missile users.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2014-01-22 14:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alpha strike is only relevant if it can KILL the target on that single shot. Same way for burst weapon (that given the standard in eve of high alpha weapons having low sustained DPS).

Do not underestaimate the fact that a LOT of people that REALLY know PVP have pointed how horrible this weapon system is in the absolute majority of cases.

I agree that indeed the current weapon system needs a lot of tweaking before it can actually be considered anywhere near on par with the effectiveness of artillery for example. I am just wondering why more good PVPers like you and your own corp are not more in favour of working with this burst mechanic for missiles.

I would say the concept which CCP Rise has put out is certainly sound and also needed for missiles to keep on par with gunnery systems. If anything all the angst should probalby be directed toward improving standard heavy missiles launchers instead of asking for RHML to be made into a replacement for them.



Because in small scale PVP you usually CANNOT kill the enemy before you reload with rapid weapons. Therefore having a lower DPS becomes a very very bad tradeof.

When you have a blob, even a tiny blob of 12+ ships (yes 12 ships is a blob for me because it scales to the level where personal skills become less relevant) then alpha strike start to become relevant, because usually 12 alpha strike ships an kill another instance of the same ship in 1 volley, therefore gaining something from the alpha strike.

Even before the rapid laucnhers changes, the ONLY reason we used rapids were because of lower fittings.

We have no problem killing frigates with HAMs in our tengus, rapids were there only for range and better fittings.

I see what you are saying, in those examples the burst option isn't going to be as effective as overall dps, but then the point still remains, why should missile users not have an option to deliver burst damage if the wish to. Of course if you are flying solo against a similar class of ship with equal tank then overall dps is often going to be a better choice. But against smaller targets, and in larger number, then at least we have the option to use these missiles.

Right now if the only reason to use rapids where due to a trade of between dps and lower fitting reqs then that seems a bit of a poor choice to me for missile users.



The fact is that we LOST the fitting advantage and LOST dps. Now there is no reason to use rapid launchers.

Because ALMOST EVERYTHING that we would kill with rapids, we can kill with HAMS. But with HAMS we can kill A LOT things that with rapids we cannot.

Rapids allowed us to use 100MN cerberus, now that ship is gone.. and non usable anymore. Give me the low fittigns back and rapids are useful again

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#158 - 2014-01-22 16:03:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alpha strike is only relevant if it can KILL the target on that single shot. Same way for burst weapon (that given the standard in eve of high alpha weapons having low sustained DPS).

Do not underestaimate the fact that a LOT of people that REALLY know PVP have pointed how horrible this weapon system is in the absolute majority of cases.

I agree that indeed the current weapon system needs a lot of tweaking before it can actually be considered anywhere near on par with the effectiveness of artillery for example. I am just wondering why more good PVPers like you and your own corp are not more in favour of working with this burst mechanic for missiles.

I would say the concept which CCP Rise has put out is certainly sound and also needed for missiles to keep on par with gunnery systems. If anything all the angst should probalby be directed toward improving standard heavy missiles launchers instead of asking for RHML to be made into a replacement for them.



Because in small scale PVP you usually CANNOT kill the enemy before you reload with rapid weapons. Therefore having a lower DPS becomes a very very bad tradeof.

When you have a blob, even a tiny blob of 12+ ships (yes 12 ships is a blob for me because it scales to the level where personal skills become less relevant) then alpha strike start to become relevant, because usually 12 alpha strike ships an kill another instance of the same ship in 1 volley, therefore gaining something from the alpha strike.

Even before the rapid laucnhers changes, the ONLY reason we used rapids were because of lower fittings.

We have no problem killing frigates with HAMs in our tengus, rapids were there only for range and better fittings.

I see what you are saying, in those examples the burst option isn't going to be as effective as overall dps, but then the point still remains, why should missile users not have an option to deliver burst damage if the wish to. Of course if you are flying solo against a similar class of ship with equal tank then overall dps is often going to be a better choice. But against smaller targets, and in larger number, then at least we have the option to use these missiles.

Right now if the only reason to use rapids where due to a trade of between dps and lower fitting reqs then that seems a bit of a poor choice to me for missile users.



The fact is that we LOST the fitting advantage and LOST dps. Now there is no reason to use rapid launchers.

Because ALMOST EVERYTHING that we would kill with rapids, we can kill with HAMS. But with HAMS we can kill A LOT things that with rapids we cannot.

Rapids allowed us to use 100MN cerberus, now that ship is gone.. and non usable anymore. Give me the low fittigns back and rapids are useful again


So.. use hams then and stop bitching. Rapids use an ammo type smaller than any other cruiser weapon. No other weapon system has this advantage. That would be like 180 autocannons or 650 arty having a Sig resolution of 50, instead of the current 120.

Its like CCP knew that heavies and hams didnt hit frigs great and tweaked a launcher specifically to kill frigs. Hams and heavies when fitted properly can apply all their damage to cruiser size targets. So there is no need to use rlml for this job anymore. Do heavies need a buff? Yes. But rlml are far from worthless.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#159 - 2014-01-22 17:59:17 UTC
Rise, I can't understand why you would release incomplete changes on TQ. Why not wait until you've gotten it right and players have had time to test it on the test server? I believe you are better than this, and I am going holding you to a higher standard. Please rethink your decision to go forward with these changes. Numerous others here have posted very excellent changes that deserve consideration.

PS HMLs still have terrible damage application and just making them shoot faster does nothing. I was engaged by a RHML typhoon while I was in my cruiser, and his volleys did 29 damage. That doesn't seem like burst dps. Your thoughts?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-01-22 18:29:07 UTC
Thanks, Obama.