Player Features and Ideas Discussion

There was a graph at FanFest that showed a drastic drop in rapid launcher usage after Rubicon, a recovery and then apparently a subsequent increase. There wasn't a breakdown of rapid light launchers vs. rapid heavy launchers or a comparison with other missile systems (which I think is relevant).

Ok 30k damage in 20 seconds, 60 secs to reload (lol) I'll presume your talking RHML?
They can do that now by overheating and have a reload of 35 seconds, you want to increase the reload to 60 seconds and remove overheating?

It would be the least used weapon system next to - - - Oh sorry the least used weapon system is Rapids Launchers due to overly long reload and poor damage application.

I feel like I should add my voice to the thread (for all the good it'll do...)

Yes, I fly RLML caracals sometimes.
Is that because I like RLML? No, it's not. It's because there aren't any other viable choices in medium missile launchers. And let me tell you, going up against a harpy with all inferno missiles loaded in your RLMLs is a good way to get a quick lossmail.

Flew with some rapid lights the other day, I really only ever use them on a celestis or caracal; neither ship sees much action with me.

Rapid Lights are as bad as I thought they'd be.

Piloting error on my part to be sure, but a number of salvos missed their mark due range limitations. (Attempting to chase down a frigate, while maintaining some sort of distance from the enemy furball.)

Anyhoo.... running out of ammo on the Sluggish-Light module is like signing up to be Falcon jammed TWICE, just without the falcon.


Not Fun.

Not Exciting.



Serious CCP derp.

You guys should seriously watch that video I have posted some time. The mechanic has existed for decades and only recieves complaints from people with no idea what they're doing. On sisi I kill vagabonds and cerbs with rlml quite easily. These are hacs with 50% more ehp than you standard cruiser getting smushed by what you call the weakest weapon system in the game.

When I can I'll make a video for you to watch. .. or alternatively go look up some mwll vulture vids.

So on SiSi we have the new reload timer icons around the weapons which track "backwards" to show how long you have left on the reload. It's quite nice.

As a related note, going back to this post from CCP Rise, has there been anything further on the discussion of decoupling the reload time from the ammo swap?

Light missiles should get less rof and more damage. They're not a dps weapon they're a missile alternative to projectile artillery. Rlml have very high dps.as it is but if you look at how the complaint centralises around their ineffectiveness at engaging more than one target not due to dps but because their damage gets mostly expended on the first target there leaving only a small portion of potential damage available for the next target. If you increase the damage of the missile and drop the rof on regular lml to have the same dps over all you can pack more overall damage in to your load.

Extrapolate to ship bonuses and rlml. Currently a tengu can spit out enough damage to kill an average cruiser. But it can't fight two cruisers. A good many cruisers also fit enough tank to take more than one load of kinetic as well. Some of this comes from missiles having explosion velocities that are far too low. Really a missile explosion should be nearly impossible to outrun yet a battleship can speed tank light missiles. Just to put things in perspective.

In a perfect world a caracal can yes kill one or two frigates with its rlml but remember for an equivalent number of guns it does 30% less damage than a cerb.

Let me debunk that comparison.

Mechwarrior and eve use a similar way of outfitting your chosen war machine. They're not really that different in my eyes and what I see is a particular style of weapon that is clearly not working out for most people in its current state and that the answer has already existed for a long time. A rhml ship in this theoretical configuration would wipe out any dessie or frig in one volley.. and then be at the mercy of any new attackers for a time. Not to mention that missiles themselves I never said would be changed so all their application issues still exist its just a matter of the time period the potential damage is levied in. I can expand on this more later but to me aside from some obvious differences the two games share a lot of similarities and certain mechanics being borrowed at least for testing would go a long way. While Rise might not be reading this thread any more it wouldn't hurt to be able to have a server with maybe 2 solar systems where we can prototype things quickly. The changes to the module I propose are just xml values and as for server load issues should the idea take off smartbomb nets become a thing again as a counter.

It just occured to me each module has a "charges per cycle" value. Up it to 2 or 3 per cycle. Triple the ROF without changing anything. Now you increase missile count to 21 (or 24, or whatever multiple you want) and you get an uptime of 15-20 seconds and keep the 35 second reload time. Or increase reload time.

Still waiting on SISI to get back up so I can make a couple of vids, been waiting a long time now. Tried to gank a gila in a tengu with RLML today. Messed up the warp and he micro'd away. Crucially I am finding the dps is still so very low on RLML. I'd far prefer to have much greater volley and reload more often than to have my 'unique' weapon system be out-dps'd by something that doesn't even use ammo.

For the record, gila with 3x DDA II and hammerheads 630dps sustained, My tengu about 370dps sustained. The only strength of this weapon system is pushing damage downfield faster than it can be repped against but even OH'd my fit still doesn't come close to this. This is a pimp-fit tengu in a specialist configuration being outclassed by a t2 fit pirate ship. I really have to say I'm gobsmacked. FWIW if my scram had gone off in time I would have eventually killed him but that's only because of T3 tank.

I'd like to go back here and look at some things.


Let's add the new Orthrus to that mix since I have a functional (and quite workable) fit for it.

Orthrus: with merely TWO (2) t2 BCS gets 577 DPS and 384 sustained dps, with 2016 volley. With 3x BCS II it gets 631 peak, 430 sustained and 2077 volley. Across 20 volleys total damage downfield is 40320.

The Orthrus with only 2x BCS II has 21.8% more total damage in volley than a Tengu or Cerberus. I have a distinct problem with this. The only ship I can see being universally powerful with RLML and not some fringe-case wannabe is the Orthrus and that's only because it's total damage per clip is high enough to kill many buffer-fit T1s. Fully selectable damage type.

Now I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT advocating through this a nerf for the Orthrus. The RLML is still the common denominator for all these ships and it is only the orthrus's retartedly high damage bonus that makes the weapon system a solid choice. RLML has been shown repeatedly throughout this thread to be a sub-par performer and even now internally doesn't work when mounted on chassis' which otherwise *should* be considering this module. RLML does not perform properly for PVE because it doesn't have the raw ammo count to be productive against the grind. It doesn't work in PVP because it fires too slowly and outright doesn't deliver enough damage on most hulls. To make this comparison completely fair though I'm now going to re-do that list and include a generic triple BCSII fit on ALL hulls that can use missiles not excluding RLML. Any ship with a bonus to RLML will be given a fitting and its stats posted.

Let's begin. I will post 2x tengu configurations because it comes in 5 and 6 launcher setups most typically. The 6 launcher set up is most likely PVE and not PVP. All other fits posted include scrams/kiting and other gear, none of these fits are vacuum wrapped.

Sustained/Peak/Overheated/gross damage

Huginn: 144/245/289/12100
Loki: 212/393/460/16160
Bellicose: 191/327/385/16160
Sacrilege: 239/409/481/20160
Legion: 240/368/433/20160
Caracal: 215/410/481/20160
NCaracal: 258/491/578/24180
NOsprey: 220/370/433/24180
ScFi: 220/370/433/24180
Gila: 240/368/433/24180
onyx: 250/384/451/25200
Tengu 5 launcher OH sub: 331/614/722/25200
Cerb: 348/678/722/31894
Tengu 6 launcher: 383/736/866/31960
Orthrus: 412/631/742/40320

This is not an exhaustive list, these are not max dps fits, this is for research purposes only. Orthrus gets 8360 more gross damage per clip than the next best performer which is a T3 ship with an extra launcher and about 200mil in subsystems. There's lots that's wrong with this equation. More than ever is the case for RLML dispensing their charges at a much higher ROF been stronger.

in my next look at this I'm going to compare them to some turret using ships/fits and see what falls out. 782/5000 characters remaining. My fingers hurt, I need a coffee.

I also wanted to add that the Tengus and cerbs all lose about 24% of their damage when using NOT kinetic, putting them at ~24180 gross for the 6 launcher tengu and cerb and 20160 for the 5 launcher tengu. Gila when shooting EM or explosive loses 30% over kinetic and gets 16060 damage per clip. 452/5000.

The RLML would be a good skirmishing platform if the ship that uses it the most had their RoF swapped for a Damage bonus instead.

Half the "dps" bonus on the Caracal, Bellicose and the Cerb is useless with RLML, which are probably the best platforms for it.
Right now it's still used because Heavy Missile are garbage and HAMs are not flexible enough for solo/micro gang engagement.

The 50km range and good application are it's saving grace, but it could really shine with tweaking the stats of those 3 ships a bit.