These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Roguehellhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#681 - 2014-04-28 23:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Roguehellhound
Onictus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Caldari still ahve more damage type variability than amarr or gallente, so stop hitting that key.



Once you pass BC IV there is basically no point in ever loading anything except kinetic (also applies to tengu) whatever damage you make up in resistance holes you pay back in damage that you plain aren't doing.


indeed and its the sad part of the whole affair.

Also to add, why does caldari T1 hulls have lower scan res compared to say.. the mimatar? doesn't it go against lore? and doesn't it kinda gimp caldari a bit when you factor in flight time for missiles and slightly slower lock time?

one way i think of having to fix the missiles is to buff them all across the board-flight time, damage-and have it where people could mount defensive points on a ship hulls utilizing things like the RARELY used Defender Missiles as a form of counter. but sadly it has its own can of worms to figure out and balance.... would be for another discussion.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#682 - 2014-04-28 23:58:02 UTC
Roguehellhound wrote:

Also to add, why does caldari T1 hulls have lower scan res compared to say.. the mimatar? doesn't it go against lore? and doesn't it kinda gimp caldari a bit when you factor in flight time for missiles and slightly slower lock time?


That is the trade for their lock ranges, Drakes can lock a HELL of a lot further than a Hurricane.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#683 - 2014-04-29 01:20:58 UTC
Why not have a skill that reduces reload time by 4% per skill level, knocking off another 7 seconds at lvl 5.

Or just have the low slot weapon upgrades for missiles give a bonus to reload speed, maybe 8-10%.

Honestly, you might as well make the Rapid launchers the missile equivalent to artillery. Albeit, it would do damage over a period of x seconds instead of straight up alpha, but artillery also has a base line cycle time of 40 seconds on the larges in between every shot. Just make it so that it forces players to engage from range where they are necessarily outside of standard ewar range, give them a reason to stay out at a long range and give the ships with missile boosts bonuses to the effectiveness of targetting jammers, target painters, and what not. remove any skill that might let them tank. force them to keep range or die type of scenario.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#684 - 2014-04-29 01:31:17 UTC
Odoman Empeer wrote:
Why not have a skill that reduces reload time by 4% per skill level, knocking off another 7 seconds at lvl 5.

Or just put the reload time back to 10 seconds...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#685 - 2014-04-29 01:42:46 UTC
Which is a great idea until you see that the game itself is a series of pockets and choke points. Keeping range is a fine argument in those 30% of cases where you get to dictate the initial fight circumstances
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#686 - 2014-05-01 14:10:56 UTC
Thought I'd throw the link to the slide on Rapid Light Missile Launcher damage/usage metrics that came up on the Twitch Stream as CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are talking about balancing.

http://i.imgur.com/b4Hrk4V.png
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#687 - 2014-05-01 14:22:07 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Thought I'd throw the link to the slide on Rapid Light Missile Launcher damage/usage metrics that came up on the Twitch Stream as CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie are talking about balancing.

I'd be curious to see the rapid heavy missile launcher damage/usage metrics...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#688 - 2014-05-19 04:13:09 UTC
That's an interesting graph but it doesn't tell you how or where those missiles were being used? By mass fleets of nano caracals against frigates? Scythe Fleet Issues against other cruisers (the only real missile kiter out there).

And what about these new pirate ships coming out? I can make a cerberus functional with RLML on Sisi when using an XLASB and 1x LSE II but that's about where I draw the line on them. Since everyone naturally associates missiles with kinetic why are caldari one of the worst platforms for missiles to be mounted on?
Battlingbean
Wings of the Dark Portal
#689 - 2014-05-19 05:29:58 UTC
I wouldn't even consider using a missile system with 35 second reload time, it is just ridiculous. Between this reload time and kinetic damage bonuses only, missiles don't really have a damage type selection advantage.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#690 - 2014-05-19 06:20:39 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
That's an interesting graph but it doesn't tell you how or where those missiles were being used? By mass fleets of nano caracals against frigates? Scythe Fleet Issues against other cruisers (the only real missile kiter out there).

And what about these new pirate ships coming out? I can make a cerberus functional with RLML on Sisi when using an XLASB and 1x LSE II but that's about where I draw the line on them. Since everyone naturally associates missiles with kinetic why are caldari one of the worst platforms for missiles to be mounted on?

It is also a totally useless metric when it has nothing to compare to.
I'd like to see the usage of other types of weapons compared to RLML.



RLML usage is greatly influenced by the fact there is no viable missile alternative.

To get a true idea on how popular and balanced Rapid Launchers are in their current guise, there needs to be something to compare them to.
We don't have that, so any statistics metrics or whatever you choose to call them are biased and have no value in judging whether they are balanced or not.



My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#691 - 2014-05-19 06:47:19 UTC
Well the thing is about it you'll notice a peak dps on your average fit can hit nearly 1k dps. But sustained dps sits between 300 and 350.

For reference a :
ScFI does 370dps before reloads with RLML. with 3x BCS II
Nopsrey: 370dps with kinetic.. 3x BCS II
T1 Caracal: 410 with kinetic and 3x BCS II
Navy Caracal: 490 with 3x BCS II
Cerberus: 678
max dps tengu: 820


So the DPS stats are very nice, but what about over-all damage delivered and uptime?
ScFI, Nosprey both have 4 launchers and deliver a max damage of 1209 volley for 20 volleys giving 24180 damage.
Caracal: 5 launchers give 1008 damage per volley and ROF gives the extra dps. 20160 max damage
Navy Caracal: 6 launchers, 1209 volley.. extra ROF give the dps here. 24180 damage
Cerberus: 1587 per volley, 31894 damage max.
Tengu: 6 launchers, 1598 volley. Total damage is 31960.

Tengu expels its charges fastest. The NOsprey and ScFi the slowest.

So now lets look at sustained dps
Caracal: 215
NCaracal: 258
NOsprey: 220
ScFi: 220
Cerb: 348
Tengu: 383.

So at a good 50x the cost of a caracal a Tengu gets nearly double the sustained dps and about 50% more actual damage per clip. This figure is before considering things like ammo-type gimping and all that other goodness. I'm sure I could build a massive graph of all medium missile users in the same vein but it's just not necessary right now.

What I would say is from my own experience and exposure to the platform is that the RLML is an underperformer. Anecdotal graphs from CCP don't mean much without any context - the RLML is the WORST missile platform for sustained dps and only wins out on applied dps.

If I could make a preliminary suggestion it would be at least to make the kinetic damage bonus on the T2/T3 a generic 5% missile damage bonus and give a bigger clip. If Rise and co. really want to keep the missile reload time then at least give us this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70yNAwUUsc0
The whole clip is expended straight away across the course of a few seconds. Now you can treat it like it was oversized artillery with 40s reload times BUT it delivers x-amount of damage downfield on a platform which: can be speed tanked, sig tanked and outrun.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#692 - 2014-05-21 12:39:20 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
That's an interesting graph but it doesn't tell you how or where those missiles were being used? By mass fleets of nano caracals against frigates? Scythe Fleet Issues against other cruisers (the only real missile kiter out there).

And what about these new pirate ships coming out? I can make a cerberus functional with RLML on Sisi when using an XLASB and 1x LSE II but that's about where I draw the line on them. Since everyone naturally associates missiles with kinetic why are caldari one of the worst platforms for missiles to be mounted on?

It is also a totally useless metric when it has nothing to compare to.
I'd like to see the usage of other types of weapons compared to RLML.



RLML usage is greatly influenced by the fact there is no viable missile alternative.

To get a true idea on how popular and balanced Rapid Launchers are in their current guise, there needs to be something to compare them to.
We don't have that, so any statistics metrics or whatever you choose to call them are biased and have no value in judging whether they are balanced or not.


I think the biggest thing has always been that missiles are balanced with EWAR in mind ie webs and painters while guns are balanced around size catagories. Nevermind that webs and painters help turrets to apply damage too but turrets are used in kiting activity to great affect while its accepted that missiles aren't very good at pretty much anything.

I propose a radical new perspective for missiles of all sizes. They are brawling weapons, designed around operating under the influence of EWAR and hence when undocking a missile boat this is your #1 consideration. Is your fleet bringing EWAR? Yes/No?

If yes; missiles are great because they hit resist holes, often from a great distance and never "miss" so they're extremely dependable.

If no: does your ship have the speed/mass or other ability to keep your targets ability to maneuvre low? The lower your targets speed the better you do, simply crashing head first in to your opponent and then bumping them around can be enough. Fit a scram by default if you're undocking without friends - while a MWD doesn't affect applied dps the fact that they might outrun your missiles is enough reason for concern.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/38405563/

Simply put - don't warp to zero on an opponent you haven't fought before, ESPECIALLY if you're in a kiter.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#693 - 2014-05-21 13:53:26 UTC
A reduction in the reload time for rapid launchers from 35 to 30 seconds would be a vast improvement despite the small adjustment. In addition, I don't see why rapid launchers shouldn't be able to field defender missiles (this actually seems like a better fit for Defenders). And finally, Faction FoF missiles should be re-introduced to the LP stores.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#694 - 2014-05-21 13:58:29 UTC
i thought faction FOF already existed in amarr/gallente FW stations?

also they have a thing about that reload time - the sustained dps needs to be lower than conventional weapons systems so that those conventional weapons remain valid. The point of contention Ive always had was the term "front loaded damage" and how it still takes 60 seconds to unload your damage and then 35 seconds to reload as opposed to dumping your damage in 20 seconds and taking 60 seconds to reload which encourages smarter engagements.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#695 - 2014-05-21 14:31:40 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
i thought faction FOF already existed in amarr/gallente FW stations?

also they have a thing about that reload time - the sustained dps needs to be lower than conventional weapons systems so that those conventional weapons remain valid. The point of contention Ive always had was the term "front loaded damage" and how it still takes 60 seconds to unload your damage and then 35 seconds to reload as opposed to dumping your damage in 20 seconds and taking 60 seconds to reload which encourages smarter engagements.

Pretty sure that that was only for a limited time and that they've been subsequently removed. Even with a reduction to 30 seconds the sustained dps will still be lower than any comparable medium or large missile system.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#696 - 2014-05-21 14:40:14 UTC
it *has* to have lower sustained dps, that's the whole point. Kind of like artillery having pathetic DPS but super alpha. The laws of alpha between arty and missiles are similar just applied differently.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#697 - 2014-05-21 14:44:13 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
it *has* to have lower sustained dps, that's the whole point. Kind of like artillery having pathetic DPS but super alpha. The laws of alpha between arty and missiles are similar just applied differently.

They do, and even with a reduction in reload time to 20 seconds they still would.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#698 - 2014-05-21 14:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleb Seremshur
I was talking about a cycle time such that the clip is emptied in 20 seconds. Reload time is 60 seconds. "moments of tension" and all that. We're talking about 1 missile per second for a total of 20-30k damage delivered in 20 seconds.

giving 1000dps burst and a sustained dps of about 330, in both cases an improvement over current dps values and also you wont take as long to work out you're shooting the wrong ammo type.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#699 - 2014-05-21 14:53:02 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I was talking about a cycle time such that the clip is emptied in 20 seconds. Reload time is 60 seconds. "moments of tension" and all that. We're talking about 1 missile per second for a total of 20-30k damage delivered in 20 seconds.

If you change the reload time to 60 seconds you might as well write these weapon systems off.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alyssa Haginen
Doomheim
#700 - 2014-05-21 15:46:04 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
CCP Rise: Okay we'll shorten it by 5 seconds.

Players: NO! 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

CCP Rise: 5 seconds.

Players: 20 SECONDS!

* CCP Rise has left the conversation.


This