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[Rubicon 1.1] Rapid Missile Update

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#341 - 2014-01-28 19:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Sgt Ocker wrote:



Personally I would not like to see dual 150S changed, they work quite well as is on my Arazu..

Ok, I'm going to contradict myself here, maybe Recons could be a ship type to benefit from a burst weapon. Scan, get a warpin, decloak, light cyno, apply burst damage while awaiting blops to do their thing.
Handy if your targeting small gangs where the burst damage can start to deal with tackle before the rest of your fleet arrives.

I think like Catherine Laartii, the current dual weapon turrets, modified to use small and medium ammo accordingly would not make them OP but combined with the front loading burst application of damage, make them a viable weapon for shooting smaller targets.
Reduced ammunition capacity, improved tracking and last but by no means least, a 20 second reload (same as rlml, rhml should have).
Dual 180mm AutoCannon should also receive an optimal range bonus to keep it inline with other turrets in that class.

If we are to have Burst weapons in the game, spread the love and give them to all


There, see? It would be a reasonable idea to try for expanding these, both to medium AND large 'dual' weapons respectively. The issue I'm seeing here is that the reload timer would be extremely difficult to apply to lasers, since you know, you don't exactly need to reload them much.

For simplicity's sake, you could split up the rediculously long reload timer with the miniature 5-10 second ones and have a severely reduced capacity; a true 'burst' weapon. You could also fix the in-game mechanics to have your ship keep firing its weapons after reloading. Lasers could fix this by having a mechanic for ALL the burst weapons to build up heat, but hit the reload timer as a built-in function to avoid taking heat damage for such high sustained dps(instead of reloading, they'd use the same crystal, and if it was faction or t2, burn out after the normal number of uses).

Spreading the dps out like that over time I think would be an appropriate way to balance the problem highlighted earlier with having it spread out appropriately in tiny clips with small reload timers; I think this would more importantly solve the issue these weapons have against active tanked targets(pvp and pve respectively). How's that sound for a solution?
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#342 - 2014-01-28 19:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vinyl 41
there is no need for adding extra reload mechanics just make those laser consume more cap like 10 -15% even with cap boosters the cap drain should be limiting factor for those
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2014-01-28 19:41:34 UTC
Vinyl 41 wrote:
there is no need for adding extra reload mechanics just make those laser consume more cap like 10 -15% even with cap boosters the cap drain should be limiting factor for those


Look, just because missile designers can't design their way into the nearest pole-dancing club does not give anyone an excuse to start meddling with guns.

Stop giving CCP silly ideas, they have enough of their own!

Lol

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#344 - 2014-01-28 19:47:12 UTC
i just want to share the "greatness" of the burst launchers with gun users Twisted
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#345 - 2014-01-28 19:54:04 UTC
The problem with applying the concept to turrets is that turrets do not gain much in the way of stats based on the ammo.

All of the important stats for turrets are in the turret itself, with some minor modification granted by the ammo.

Changing current dual turrets to use current smaller ammo would do nothing to change tracking, sig, range, etc...


It might be worth discussing the creation of a mid slot "Flack Defense Firing Computer" that would alter current turrets on the ship to consume (For instance) 10x the ammo per shot for a massive increase of tracking and Rate of Fire. It could be coded per turret type so that different downsides could be in place for each turret type---for instance applying heat to lasers since they don't really consume ammo unless you are using advanced crystals.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#346 - 2014-01-28 21:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The problem with applying the concept to turrets is that turrets do not gain much in the way of stats based on the ammo.

All of the important stats for turrets are in the turret itself, with some minor modification granted by the ammo.

Changing current dual turrets to use current smaller ammo would do nothing to change tracking, sig, range, etc...


It might be worth discussing the creation of a mid slot "Flack Defense Firing Computer" that would alter current turrets on the ship to consume (For instance) 10x the ammo per shot for a massive increase of tracking and Rate of Fire. It could be coded per turret type so that different downsides could be in place for each turret type---for instance applying heat to lasers since they don't really consume ammo unless you are using advanced crystals.


That's why I was said specifically that those statistics would be changed with the ammo since, you know, that was kind of the whole point of the idea I was making; that dual turrets could be made effective counterparts to the RLML and RHML since they're being pidgeon-holed into this burst mechanic because they're the only weapon types in their class...

That defense comp is a neat idea, though. But when I was talking about heat, I was talking in a lore/mechanical sense, rather than actually taking heat dmg; it would basically be an explanation for the need for a reload timer after such short a time. Wasn't referencing thermodynamics directly.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#347 - 2014-01-28 22:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
The tears from drone players are priceless… Twisted
Not feeling so bad about the rapid light missile launchers anymore.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2014-01-28 22:43:19 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The tears from drone players are priceless… Twisted
Not feeling so bad about the rapid light missile launchers anymore.


I'm a very heavy user of sentry drones in W-space PVE. They were way too powerful in that role before. I actually welcome the nerf.

When a player feels no regret about his fitting decision, it means the game is broken.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#349 - 2014-01-28 22:49:12 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I actually welcome the nerf.

It's long overdue. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2014-01-29 00:04:22 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The tears from drone players are priceless… Twisted
Not feeling so bad about the rapid light missile launchers anymore.


I'm a very heavy user of sentry drones in W-space PVE. They were way too powerful in that role before. I actually welcome the nerf.

When a player feels no regret about his fitting decision, it means the game is broken.



Though problem is its made the Domi/ishtar even more the drone boat of choice. My ratting Domi hitting at 160km with bouncers is pretty much unaffected by the nerf. Kinda sux for people with Geddons or Rattlers though.


Back on topic ... has anyone actually tried the post patch stealth un-nerf of the RHML and RLML ? I am still considering them as a secondary anti-frigate weapon on some of my turret boats.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#351 - 2014-01-29 00:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Back on topic ... has anyone actually tried the post patch stealth un-nerf of the RHML and RLML ? I am still considering them as a secondary anti-frigate weapon on some of my turret boats.

Yes, see my comments above. The biggest improvement is the +2-3 ammunition increase, although the 5-second reduction in reload times is noticeable as well.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2014-01-29 00:52:27 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Dual 150mm railguns etc have been in the game since the dawn of time. They are essentially heavily gimped (in damage and range) versions of the 200 and 250mm railguns, having lower damage than a medium railgun, (much) worse tracking than a 150mm railgun, the same low range as a 150mm railgun and a fitting requirement closer to mediums than lights.

Until recently I had thought them completely useless, but it seems that since the recent medium long range gun changes they do have some limited utility on self-tanked cruisers.

The applications for them though are narrow, as it seems they are for the RLML at the moment.


Wouldn't it be nice, then, if in addition to going back to the old system of rapid lights and rapid heavies, they did the same things for the guns? Logically it would make sense for them to do that since they're basically just two small-caliber guns put together. It would follow, then, that they would be used as turret versions of rapid lights or heavies; high-dps versions of weapons from the weight class beneath them for hitting smaller things.

Part of the reason why CCP is on this whole 'burst weapon' shtick in the first place is because of RLML and RHML are the only particular weapon for the role they have. It really would not be much of a stretch for them to 'balance' that with the old mechanic by redoing these dual weapons to function in a similar fashion, just not having them or the missiles for that matter do the silly 'burst' thing. Undersized caliber weapons have the potential for this built into their very existence; it would make more sense for them to be as such rather than their current iteration.


Yes I've thought about this, but if you did it the dual 150s with javelin would deliver the same dps as a heavy neutron blaster with void while having 25% more optimal, 100% more falloff, better tracking, 35% of the power grid requirement and 60% of the capacitor requirement.

In short, there would be no reason whatsoever to fit any other weapon to a hybrid-bonused cruiser or battlecruiser unless you wanted extreme long range.

They would even be awesome on dominixes and armageddons as the secondary weapon system.

In short, more of a monster than the RLML was.



shhhh ... enough talk about applying this reload delay to other weapon systems or they will make it standard for sentries as well.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#353 - 2014-01-29 01:18:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ok, I'm going to contradict myself here, maybe Recons could be a ship type to benefit from a burst weapon. Scan, get a warpin, decloak, light cyno, apply burst damage while awaiting blops to do their thing.
Handy if your targeting small gangs where the burst damage can start to deal with tackle before the rest of your fleet arrives.


you mean a recon burst weapon like this?

[Arazu, burst!]

3x Heavy Neutron Blaster II (Void M)
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

2x Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 150)
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
10MN Afterburner II

3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II

4x Hammerhead II


Numbers: (overheated, only 1 ancillary booster running at a time)

[Statistics - Mournful Conciousness]

Effective HP: 12,020 (Eve: 9,451)
Tank Ability: 579.14 DPS
orbit speed: 550m/s
Shield Resists - EM: 79.32%, Ex: 71.68%, Ki: 83.01%, Th: 76.35%

Capacitor (Lasts 8m 40s)

Volley Damage: 1,756.09
DPS: 559.83

My Arazu, as I explained is used to bait or search and point for a blops gang of 5 or 6.. 45k EHP, 700mm scan res, long and short point. DPS is far less important than the ability to catch and hold the given target long enough for the DPS ships to jump to you.
The way I use the Arazu is why I think dual 150's would be good as a burst weapon. If it were possible to fit RLML to it I would probably give them a try as I often find myself being annoyed by frigates as soon as I light the cyno.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#354 - 2014-01-29 02:05:27 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
what? no turret ship has generic all-size bonuses. drones do, but as we all know, combat drones are awful, and CCP have been putting a few size-specific tracking/speed bonuses in, for some reason thinking that people don't just use sentries on everything with 75 or more bandwidth.

Read it again. Rapid light launchers, heavy launchers and heavy assault launchers are all medium-sized weapons. Just as heavy electron, ion and neutron blasters and dual 150mm, 200mm and 250mm rail guns are all medium-sized weapons. It would be like arguing that electron blasters have better tracking but less DPS, so they should be excluded from receiving any hull tracking bonuses.


cool semantics. if you can explain why they should even exist, it'll be easier to explain why they should get bonuses. you could group rapid launchers in with smartbombs, neutralisers and salvagers for lack of ship bonuses, if it'll make you feel better.

heavy electrons have about 1/10th the tracking of light neutrons. this is unlike rapid lights, which obviously have the same tracking as lights (I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).




To correct you, there aren't rapid light missiles. There is a rapid light missile launcher, that fires light missiles. Essentially, if you read the description: A cruiser sized launcher that fires light missiles. In dummy talk: a bigger box that holds more small stuff.

Why would a light missiles explosion radius increase simply because it is being housed in a larger launcher? Its intended to kill frigs. Killing cruisers? No. A blob of rapid light ships? Yes, a blob of anything will kill a single target. Your trading the ability to kill cruisers to kill frigs and dessies. If anything you should be complaining about the lighter and dual variants ( double barreled frig turrets) having such a large sig radius. Rapid lights were never op. The other missile systems were ****, in the case of Heavy Missiles, and subpar with Hams. The explo radius on t2 missiles is absolutely terrible. 192 for damage dealing Heavy assault missiles. and ive trained the reduction of explo radius to lvl 4.

Some will say: all you have to do is fit tp, rigs, blah blah, but you forget on caldari ships ( the missile race ) you can fit ****. 5 mids, prop mod, point, 3 left for a laughable tank. Only exception is navy caracal. its explo radius bonus makes missiles usable. Shame i have to go facion on ships to use a weapon system.

T1 caracal:
! dcu and 3 BCU's in the lows. with 3 damage mods and ham specialization 4 and caldari cruiser 4 i only get 292 dps with faction + 33 from the 2 measly drones. with t2 ammo thats 327 dps + 33 from drones, as i said, the t2's have a 192m explosion radius with my skills. Twice that of factions.

Ive been trying to make caldari cruisesr work for the past 3 months and was thinking of taking it to level 5. yesterday I found some interesting fits for the caracal. i will not do moa as it is outclassed by the thorax., okay maybe i'll aplly my caracal findind to that. :) i'll upload my findings. 
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#355 - 2014-01-29 02:41:23 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
(I think it's necessary to point out that light missiles are ridiculously overpowered themselves in almost all attributes).

Based on the gallente frigate lineup, which represent a sort of middle ground in terms of sig/speed, faction light missiles apply the following proportions of their raw damage to different MWD frigate targets:

Interceptor: 35% (15% if the inty overloads its mwd)
AF: 63%
Attack frigate: 65%
Ewar frigate: 75%
Combat frigate: 81% (63% if the combat frig overloads its mwd)
Logi frigate: 86%
EAF: 86%

LM ships have substantially lower dps than comparable frigate sized LR setups and their damage is much easier to mitigate since all you have to do is switch on your prop mod and move in any direction you like. What exactly is so overpowered here? I know lowsec guys who want to do nothing but roll around in AB-only brawling frigates hate being kited to death by condors, but that's just whining about having your gimmick fit dumpstered by a hard counter rather than being indicative of any broader imbalance.


compare damage at range to turrets, and if you want, look at applied damage to your targets while orbiting in a turret kiter. the numbers you posted are pretty high. also look at volley damage, damage type selection, useful T2 ammo (spike and javelin and whatnot are for operating at different ranges, not for shooting a variety of targets, and are generally just really niche) availability of FOFs (i.e. immunity to damps and ecm), and obviously the immunity to tracking disruptors all missile users enjoy. CCP themselves said it's overpowered, but they're too bad to do anything about it.


You male a valid point, let me add to it:

How exactly would a tracking disrupter effect multiple missiles? A TD applies its effect to turrets, missile launchers simply house a bunch of self guided projectiles. In order for it to affect missiles it will have to target every single missile being fired. Which is why it is useless on missiles. Just because there are 3 types of turrets and 1 missile type doesnt give the majority of people in the game (who use turrets) the right to unfairly treat missiles. Having a single module that overpowers every other in the game is not balance. Damps vs ecm vs Tds vs tps. Letting td's affects every weapon makes it a must on every ship. There.There is already a module that reduces/affects missiles: Defender missiles, which admittedly are utterly useless. As you need to give up exact hardpoints to counter exact hardpoints. If one of these defender launchers could affect 2 hardpoints and fit in utility slots instead.( as a fair amount of turret ships dont have laucher slots) then they might be midly useful.

A better Idea would be to scrap defender missiles completely.
A new active midslot module that when activated would project idk random bursts of electromagnetic waves onto a target ( essentially blooming that target with em pulses) that would have a percentage chance of effecting any missiles launched from the target ship. Meaning that missiles affected would spriral out of control maybe and not hit anything. It should be no more or less powerful than td's percentage wise. It would do nicely to have a ship that can use a bonus to it.

Lastly, Fof missiles are a counter to ecm and damps as dams and ecms counter eachother. they are rarely used as they do if im not mistaken t1 non faction ammo damage. if they did faction missile damage you would be quite correct. 
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#356 - 2014-01-29 03:54:10 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Lastly, Fof missiles are a counter to ecm and damps as dams and ecms counter eachother. they are rarely used as they do if im not mistaken t1 non faction ammo damage. if they did faction missile damage you would be quite correct.

Only if you're facing a single opponent or the threat happens to be the closest target in-range. If you're faced with a 35-second reload or your opponent has non-sentry drones, you're hooped - since the drones will act as decoys for the FoF missiles.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#357 - 2014-01-29 04:13:01 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:



Personally I would not like to see dual 150S changed, they work quite well as is on my Arazu..

Ok, I'm going to contradict myself here, maybe Recons could be a ship type to benefit from a burst weapon. Scan, get a warpin, decloak, light cyno, apply burst damage while awaiting blops to do their thing.
Handy if your targeting small gangs where the burst damage can start to deal with tackle before the rest of your fleet arrives.

I think like Catherine Laartii, the current dual weapon turrets, modified to use small and medium ammo accordingly would not make them OP but combined with the front loading burst application of damage, make them a viable weapon for shooting smaller targets.
Reduced ammunition capacity, improved tracking and last but by no means least, a 20 second reload (same as rlml, rhml should have).
Dual 180mm AutoCannon should also receive an optimal range bonus to keep it inline with other turrets in that class.

If we are to have Burst weapons in the game, spread the love and give them to all


There, see? It would be a reasonable idea to try for expanding these, both to medium AND large 'dual' weapons respectively. The issue I'm seeing here is that the reload timer would be extremely difficult to apply to lasers, since you know, you don't exactly need to reload them much.

For simplicity's sake, you could split up the rediculously long reload timer with the miniature 5-10 second ones and have a severely reduced capacity; a true 'burst' weapon. You could also fix the in-game mechanics to have your ship keep firing its weapons after reloading. Lasers could fix this by having a mechanic for ALL the burst weapons to build up heat, but hit the reload timer as a built-in function to avoid taking heat damage for such high sustained dps(instead of reloading, they'd use the same crystal, and if it was faction or t2, burn out after the normal number of uses).

Spreading the dps out like that over time I think would be an appropriate way to balance the problem highlighted earlier with having it spread out appropriately in tiny clips with small reload timers; I think this would more importantly solve the issue these weapons have against active tanked targets(pvp and pve respectively). How's that sound for a solution?



I like this idea, to a point. The Medium dual versions should have S ammo, and have smaller sigs. However, ther should not be a reload time increase, they are fine as is.up to a certain point though, I usually equip the midrange turrets as they have good tracking while still having great dps. The S ammo should be limited to the smallest caliber turrets. Bring back normal rlml's and have a secondary launcher or firing mode that operates as the new launcher does. Just an idea.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#358 - 2014-01-29 04:17:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Lastly, Fof missiles are a counter to ecm and damps as dams and ecms counter eachother. they are rarely used as they do if im not mistaken t1 non faction ammo damage. if they did faction missile damage you would be quite correct.

Only if you're facing a single opponent or the threat happens to be the closest target in-range. If you're faced with a 35-second reload or your opponent has non-sentry drones, you're hooped - since the drones will act as decoys for the FoF missiles.



Forgot all about the drones. +1. FoF's do tend to launch at anything that has you targeted. Imagine a logi pilot repping someone whose jammed or damped to f*^&k
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#359 - 2014-01-29 06:01:38 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Forgot all about the drones. +1. FoF's do tend to launch at anything that has you targeted. Imagine a logi pilot repping someone whose jammed or damped to f*^&k

On the flip side, if you want to kill attacking drones - it works pretty well (since there's zero targeting delay). Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#360 - 2014-01-29 06:38:36 UTC
ok since were again on the strange ideas train i propose we make rapid launchers keep their stats as they are but add an aoe shock missle specialy for those just like the old torpedoes - usefullness factor 5 fun factor over 100 Twisted