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[Rubicon 1.1] Omnidirectional Tracking Links

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2014-01-29 15:27:50 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

Nothing should ever be nerfed because its too good at PvE. PvE is at best tertiary content (behind PvP and industry and hell probably even scamming) in this game and has clearly been an afterthought of the devs since WH space was introduced. The Domi isn't even close to OP in pvp and this was a completely unnecessary nerf that raped the ships that were previously "rebalanced" with drones as a primary weapon system but not given a range/tracking bonus to the hull.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Given that we have the ability to slave sentry drones to a SEBO'd FC in a cruiser I'd say that a domi fleet is the fastest way to burn through an opposing fleet of the same size at any range below 140km.

Even 2 domis or ishtars with a TP amongst them are deadly to any HAC within 100km.


if they are so OP then trade in your HAC for Domis and a drone bunny cruiser.


I was flying sentry domis before they were cool.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
kurage87
EVE University
Ivy League
#342 - 2014-01-29 17:40:11 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
The passive mid slot omnis are becoming active with scripts, so how about giving us a low slot passive omni without scripts? TCs already have TEs for turrets. Give drone boats some love too with similar modules.

And how about giving us a feature for allowing the use of sentries while maintaining alignment, just like every other combat ship can already do? Sentries that warp to your ship like fighters when you leave grid or sentries that can attach to the ship's hull, if desired, and while attached can travel with the ship in alignment and warp in that way.



That would probably be strongly OP. Moving sentries would become incredibly tanky, and having battleship dps with pimped-vargur-tracking won't help that.

With that, sentries would just surpass EVERY other weapon system by a huge margin...



Well if the current stated intentions of making sentries identical to turrets in DPS/tracking/effectiveness are implemented then no not at all ... sentries will then be the same as turrets.

Agreed. Sentries can be killed. No other weapon system matches that. Sentries cannot return to a ship more than 2500m away. All other weapon systems travel with the ship and are protected by the ship. With these changes, it is seeming like we need to have all other systems drop their weapons in space before being able to use them and allowing those weapons to be targeted. Captain: Target the weapons systems. Gunner: Ready to fire, captain.

As it is, EVERY other (non-drone) weapon system in the game is more tanky than drones, because they can't be targetted. Beat that for tankiness. Let drones attach to the ship's hull so that drone ships can maintain alignment when needed/desired. Let fighters guard and assist other ships. Let us have Omni Enhancers like the turret's TE's.

No other weapon has high slot anti-EWAR and tank modules.

My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#343 - 2014-01-29 18:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
kurage87 wrote:
My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is.


Well, to a point. A de-fanged drone boat can then be killed at leisure. It's advantageous to off drones, generally. You can DPS tank their damage.

They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship.

The bigger issue though, is the inability to manage velocities like a 'regular' turret ship can. No amount of manual piloting, none, can help sentries track. This is something constantly overlooked when modules etc are compared to turret ships.

Certainly an argument can be made that they are too binary - they track or do not - and that perhaps, they track too well but that is definitely a wider piece. Additionally, sight cannot be lost of the fact they are immobile. Superior tracking at a cost of being stationary, thus unable to pilot your way to better hits as well as all the other inherent weakness of being stationary, seems a reasonable trade.

The bigger issue is capitals using sentries thus eliminating much of their key weaknesses (immobility and a very finite resource) - that is a hull issue though not a good reason to have a scathing nerf of sentries across the board rendering unbonused boats pretty awful.
kurage87
EVE University
Ivy League
#344 - 2014-01-29 19:03:44 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
kurage87 wrote:
My point being, that if you want to take the fact that drones can be targeted as a weakness, you have to take the fact that there are strengths to them being targeted as well. Your ship isn't taking that damage or EWAR that the drone is.


Well, to a point. A de-fanged drone boat can then be killed at leisure. It's advantageous to off drones, generally. You can DPS tank their damage.

They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship.

Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#345 - 2014-01-29 19:30:59 UTC
You might find it easier with the shield regen nerf too. They're more likely to come back out damaged.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#346 - 2014-01-29 19:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
kurage87 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

They're not free "ablative" screening, their loss manifestly hurts the owning ship.

Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility.


Futile for carriers, and maybe a bit for those domis that go with 3 sets of sentries. Not so much for nearly ANYTHING else, unless you have a big bay filled with light drones doing piddly damage.

If drones are like ammo as people continue to claim, then t2 drones need to both be both way cheaper and way smaller (smartbomb meta \o/). Then the downsides of being anchored to them won't be such a big deal, and they can be more balanced in performance compared to other weapons that don't have those same downsides.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#347 - 2014-01-29 20:21:22 UTC
kurage87 wrote:

Of course, but it isn't trivial to kill them either. With proper drone management and replacements it's almost, but not quite, an exercise in futility.


While I agree it is easy to protect your drones, it is not easy to justify doing so from a tactical standpoint. A drone boat with no drones out is applying zero dps and is therefore useless, so what exactly would be the point of keeping the drones alive? Slowcats clearly counter this rule by having essentially limitless drones available for throwing at the enemy. Far different from piloting a subcap drone boat into PVP. Regardless, these changes further challenge the use of drone boats when pre-1.1 they were already difficult (albeit fun) ships to fly in both PVE and PVP situations.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#348 - 2014-01-29 21:34:39 UTC
Fozzie, this change is significant enough to deserve a devblog. A lot of people feel blindsided, and given that there was no deblog covering any of the Rubicon 1.1 balance changes at all, I think they're justified in feeling that way. Furthermore, to the rest of us that were not blindsided, your original post was all fact, and rather light on analysis. The most analysis we got was a sentence indicating that it was intended to be a nerf (obvious). People (myself) are also worried that this copy&paste job will just be a balance bandaid that will justify allowing the outdated drone interface to limp along for another few years while CCP focuses on other stuff. This is a lot more complicated than "sentries op, nerf omnis, everything is fine."

As of two days ago, more people were using sentries as a primary weapon system than ever before. Please give us a devblog explaining whats going on here.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mazer Rackahm
Jolly Nomads
#349 - 2014-01-29 23:58:14 UTC
My two isk: (keep in mind I haven't read all 18 pages as of the time of this post)
I got my first look at the changes to omni's today (took forever to patch) Having to use 3 omnis now to get (almost as good) stats as two omnis before... bothersome but okay. Not having skills that increase tracking for drones and then bringing the omnis "in line" with tracking computers... Seems like a problem to me. Not having low slot options like gun boats also a problem. I guess I can sacrifice tank to make my boat usable again at 120k like it was. Yay for nerfs that aren't called nerfs. Whatever. I'm just grumpy.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2014-01-30 00:02:38 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
[quote=kurage87]

Slowcats clearly counter this rule by having essentially limitless drones available for throwing at the enemy.



Well in theory you could have extra sentries on a BS (or more choice of sentries) by deploying a mobile depot and moving drones from your hold to the drone bay (I assume this is possible never tried it) but in practice a mobile depot plus a flight of drones would take up half your cargo bay in one swoop.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2014-01-30 00:26:14 UTC
I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2014-01-30 00:59:16 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script?


you are correct ... however may have missed the point

I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily.

Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis.

However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously.



Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2014-01-30 02:11:33 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script?


you are correct ... however may have missed the point

I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily.

Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis.

However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously.

Wut?

I don't follow here. I mean, I follow the actual statements presented, but the conclusion, I'm not sure what the conclusion is. That omni all the mids is the new thing to do? I'm not sure of a single issue that solves or explains though.
Mazer Rackahm
Jolly Nomads
#354 - 2014-01-30 04:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mazer Rackahm
Yeah numbers are making me grumpy. 5x FN omnis 3x range and 2x tracking gives better tracking and worse optimal than 2x omni II's used to give. 3x range 1x tracking and 1x unscripted gives a 44k optimal where I used to have a 45k and better tracking but that means getting rid of pretty much everything in the mid slots which isn't going to happen.

Edit: The 5x FN was just for testing purposes. I wouldn't suggest actually using them. Was just for a "best numbers" scenario without going way overboard with officer modules.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2014-01-30 10:10:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm slow at math so this took me a while, but earlier in the thread it was stated that since scripts help reduce stacking penalties you could at some point get more bonus per mod used at some point. How does that work when the range bonus is lower than the old omnis? Shouldn't the new ones stay inferior mod for mod even with script?


you are correct ... however may have missed the point

I think what might have been said was there is no point at all with old omnis in fitting 5 or more. However with the new omni it may well be worthwhile deploying a mobile depot and swapping out you prop mods for more up to 5 or 6 omni temporarily.

Yes ... the end result of 5 new omni (say 3 range and 2 tracking) will clearly be inferior to 5 (or in fact even 3) of the old omnis.

However that is not the point. We are in a new regime now. Five of the new omni split between two scripts will be far better than just three of the new omni. There is actually some point in fitting 5 omni now whereas 5 omni was a fail-fit previously.

Wut?

I don't follow here. I mean, I follow the actual statements presented, but the conclusion, I'm not sure what the conclusion is. That omni all the mids is the new thing to do? I'm not sure of a single issue that solves or explains though.


Nothing too profound.

Just the simple point that with a Mobile Depot at your disposal you COULD when sniping at range swap in all omnis and it would serve some purpose. Previously fitting all omnis was pointless.

I agree that aside from PvE missions in a sniping Domi you are rarely if ever going to want to do this.
Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2014-01-30 10:11:21 UTC
Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull


Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.
Trimmaloth
Darklight Expedition
#357 - 2014-01-30 12:24:30 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull


Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.




I am completely agreed too this. I wouldn't be mad at this change that much, if this would have been adressed. This part is quite outrageous.

Seriously Fozzie, how dare you not answering any of these issues?
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#358 - 2014-01-30 16:29:27 UTC
Trimmaloth wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Also quite find it sad that we have to refer to 3rd party tools, to find out the optimals and tracking of our drones. As there is no ingame way to see what the modules add. Not even to the drones while in bay. (Only shows the hull bonus on the drones there). Launched drones show nothing at all - basic stats without skill/hull


Things that need to be addressed. I want to see what happens to my drone out there, when i change my script.




I am completely agreed too this. I wouldn't be mad at this change that much, if this would have been adressed. This part is quite outrageous.

Seriously Fozzie, how dare you not answering any of these issues?


CCP doesn't really care about its customers?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#359 - 2014-01-30 17:53:48 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:

CCP doesn't really care about its customers?


They're just extremely resistant to do things that are hard. Fixing drones in a competent and comprehensive manner is hard.

Considering they only now are announcing hull repair drones, and the length of the little things thread, they're apparently also extremely resistant to doing things that are easy.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#360 - 2014-01-30 18:30:06 UTC
What I find also a joke, a bad bad joke, is if this crap about making modules able to be overheated, then why was the Drone Nav Computer also not nerfed...I mean, changed to a non-passive module, with wrecked..I mean "balanced" stats, to make drone speeds "highly competitive with other weapon systems".

I mean, my god, warriors can go faster than torpedo's.....that will never do.

This was simply a direct attack against the effective DPS of Gardes in non range-bonused hulls, and does nothing to truly impact on the 1000 Domi doctrine. But it sure as hell puts a huge dent in the PvE capabilities of mission runners and anom runners who don't use Ishtars and Domi's.