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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

First post First post
Author
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1041 - 2011-11-14 21:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinzor Aumer
I can't fight this feeling. These pellets are intended to ease life of lazy fat cats, who hate math, hate gameplay and only love to see ISKs are dropping to their already fat wallets.

I hate pellets.

It kills possibility for small corps like ours to be competitive on market by optimizing our POS. Yes, I say POS, not POSes - because we are that small. And for us it was the difference with Liquid Ozone consumption. Not a big ISK, really - but EVE is about small numbers that add together to yield success.

That's why I hate pellets. But I see the decision is made.

Nevertheless, giving up - it's not about me. And I am here not for whining, but to suggest a solution that will be satisfactory for everyone. And it's easy also. Here it is:

- let it be pellets, whatever makes you happy, Mr. Fatcat;

- but return me the fuel I managed to optimize, via "economizer hangar".

It means every hour the Tower will take pellets, decompose them and consume - but spit out excess LO and HW into this economizer hangar. If economizer is full - they are lost, obviously. But it never happens to those who can plan wisely.

And btw, CCP - I have a great plan how to make playing a lot much more mega easier. You know, T2 production is very complicated! Why can't I just right click an item and select "upgrade to T2"? You can charge, say, 10% of baseprice for this procedure. Think about it - really.
Gridwalker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1042 - 2011-11-14 22:12:33 UTC
Loooong overdue change on the "fuel blocks." I can finally ditch all the tower fueling spreadsheets!
olsted
I Left W-Space For THIS LLC.
#1043 - 2011-11-14 23:42:25 UTC
I'm seriously getting the feeling that CCP doesn't much like WH dwellers. Between this and the upcoming POCO changes, my life just got alot more difficult.

I manage 3 POS in a C4 for my alliance. Now, not only do I need to deal with nailing up POCOs so I can keep producing the fuel we need, I now also need to deploy fabrication arrays dedicated to turning what used to be perfectly good fuel into its new homogenous form that my towers are going to require. This is going to add precious time to the production chain, reduce the amount of resources available at my towers for other things (the fab arrays DO consume resources dont they?) as well as use up precious fabrication slots that I would be using otherwise for ammo, modules or ship fabrication.

Here's an alternative that fixes much of this (provided you cant be convinced to scrap it outright):

Instead of making the cubes at ammo and componant arrays (that feels awfully shoehorned in), either make a new separate module dedicated to this purpose that requires no skills and takes no tower resources to use. Hey... you could make it another bay on the tower itself. plug in the raw componants and the tower turns it into fuel cubes and drops them in the fuel bay. or maybe, how bout we eliminate the middle man and just put the raw fuel into the tower and call it a day??? Oh thats right, thats the system we have now... Tell me again, how is this easier??

For the record, the spreadsheet wrangling I had to do to manage this was part of the fun for me. Let me go on record as one person who didnt want this made "easier".

Glad to see you came to your senses on the faction consumption bonus tho.

-O.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1044 - 2011-11-15 01:00:36 UTC
Can we also please please please have an onlining queue for POS modules?
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1045 - 2011-11-15 01:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1046 - 2011-11-15 01:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
I can't fight this feeling. These pellets are intended to ease life of lazy fat cats, who hate math, hate gameplay and only love to see ISKs are dropping to their already fat wallets.

I hate pellets.

It kills possibility for small corps like ours to be competitive on market by optimizing our POS. Yes, I say POS, not POSes - because we are that small. And for us it was the difference with Liquid Ozone consumption. Not a big ISK, really - but EVE is about small numbers that add together to yield success.

That's why I hate pellets. But I see the decision is made.

Nevertheless, giving up - it's not about me. And I am here not for whining, but to suggest a solution that will be satisfactory for everyone. And it's easy also. Here it is:

- let it be pellets, whatever makes you happy, Mr. Fatcat;

- but return me the fuel I managed to optimize, via "economizer hangar".

It means every hour the Tower will take pellets, decompose them and consume - but spit out excess LO and HW into this economizer hangar. If economizer is full - they are lost, obviously. But it never happens to those who can plan wisely.

And btw, CCP - I have a great plan how to make playing a lot much more mega easier. You know, T2 production is very complicated! Why can't I just right click an item and select "upgrade to T2"? You can charge, say, 10% of baseprice for this procedure. Think about it - really.



You still have an option to optimize by producing your own fuel and saving money. I don't see your point. You can be smart and optimize your production or you can be lazy and pay extra probably 10%. It's a nice balance i think.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#1047 - 2011-11-15 01:29:44 UTC
Jason Edwards wrote:
Quote:
Turrets, launchers, EW batteries and hardeners now take 5 seconds to anchor/unanchor and 120 seconds to online/offline


Onlining new guns as old ones get disabled... now super easy. Kinda makes it pointless to disable guns even if there are no more offline ones waiting because they could anchor new ones in 5 seconds.


Onlining is still 120 sec.. and you have to be outside of the shield to anchor new ones..
olsted
I Left W-Space For THIS LLC.
#1048 - 2011-11-15 06:17:17 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Jason Edwards wrote:
Quote:
Turrets, launchers, EW batteries and hardeners now take 5 seconds to anchor/unanchor and 120 seconds to online/offline


Onlining new guns as old ones get disabled... now super easy. Kinda makes it pointless to disable guns even if there are no more offline ones waiting because they could anchor new ones in 5 seconds.


Onlining is still 120 sec.. and you have to be outside of the shield to anchor new ones..



You most certianly do not. Ive set up maybe 10 large POS in the past year with full defenses, and have done all of them sitting inside the bubble.

The *ONLY* thing you MUST leave the bubble for is to put ammo in the guns. All else can be done from inside.

-O.
Baron Holbach
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#1049 - 2011-11-15 09:08:53 UTC
i would be question about faction towers, mods etc as they come from (faction) npc drops - is there been some nerf in that area? i don't remember been getting any pos modules drop like 2 years and news like WOW this rat just drop my a faction tower bpc are also not been hear - is there been some stealth nerf for faction pos equipment (drop rate) this way?
Maul555
Xen Investments
#1050 - 2011-11-15 14:28:47 UTC
I like where you are going with this change, but please keep reduced fuel consumption somehow for faction towers. Reduced fuel/operational costs was the big draw for me. If you take this out, I will no longer have any use for factions POS's...
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#1051 - 2011-11-15 14:31:17 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I like where you are going with this change, but please keep reduced fuel consumption somehow for faction towers. Reduced fuel/operational costs was the big draw for me. If you take this out, I will no longer have any use for factions POS's...


Read before posting.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#1052 - 2011-11-15 14:36:40 UTC
Quoted for Truth!

Entity wrote:
Quote:
The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block). We talked to some large-scale starbase operators about this, and they told us that the main bonus of faction towers for them is actually that they last longer between fuel cycles. To try and compensate for the increased running costs, we've taken the above bay size increases and added +25% bay size on top of that for the "tier 1" faction towers, and +50% bay size for the "tier 2" ones. We're hoping people will find that a satisfactory tradeoff, but we're listening for further feedback on this change.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.


EDIT:Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile ISSUE RESOLVED Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

Maul555
Xen Investments
#1053 - 2011-11-15 14:37:37 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I like where you are going with this change, but please keep reduced fuel consumption somehow for faction towers. Reduced fuel/operational costs was the big draw for me. If you take this out, I will no longer have any use for factions POS's...


Read before posting.



read 53 pages? im getting around to it, but I just read the devblog and see no new information that would make my post old news...
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#1054 - 2011-11-15 14:42:08 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I like where you are going with this change, but please keep reduced fuel consumption somehow for faction towers. Reduced fuel/operational costs was the big draw for me. If you take this out, I will no longer have any use for factions POS's...


Read before posting.



read 53 pages? im getting around to it, but I just read the devblog and see no new information that would make my post old news...


Actually, I was meaning the second link mentioned in the very first post.

CCP Guard wrote:
Greyscale has news for all you starbase managers out there!

Check out his new blog on what's being done for the Winter Expansion to make starbase management more manageable.

Please also read CCP Greyscale's update based on player feedback.




Though reading all the dev posts before posting makes sense too.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1055 - 2011-11-15 15:28:46 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
You still have an option to optimize by producing your own fuel and saving money. I don't see your point. You can be smart and optimize your production or you can be lazy and pay extra probably 10%. It's a nice balance i think.

10% profit?
in high sec?
for 1-step production?
at multi-trillion ISK market niche?
You must have never produced anything, nor tried to sell it on market. Let me explain it in simple language. Suppose a man mining ice decides not to sell ice products, but manufacture pellets instead - and finds 10% profit you promise. Having this 10% profit for a Mackinaw pilot is the same as having 2 (two) additional low-slots in his Mack! One for extra ice harvester upgrade, and one for CPU upgrade to make all fit. Do you still think he will miss such a chance?

And even more of it. I hope you like surprises, cause I have one for you. If you buy ice products, make pellets, and try to sell it - you will find there is not even a zero profit, but a decent loss instead. How come? Welcome to EVE! It's 3% that matters:
- 1% is brokers fee when buying ice,
- 1% is brokers fee when selling pellets,
- 1% sales tax.
While at the same time your competitor mines ice, refines it and - suddenly - is clever enough to make pellets himself. He also pays:
- 0.5% brokers fee when selling (he's got trading skills unlike you),
- 0.5% tax as well.
And also he adds 1% of profit, his prices are still better than yours.

And having this all said, let's suppose for a moment you are right and there are 10%.
Then how dare you to compare thorough planing, fine tuning and intelligent protection of the POS and this "to click or not to click" option? If you don't need it - just go straight ahead, mind your own business. If you have some objections - put them here. But if you just say "nah, I don't like it cause I cant understand it" - then it's not even worth to continue conversation.

Just give us the economizer bay, it's not that much that I ask.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1056 - 2011-11-15 15:39:58 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I like where you are going with this change, but please keep reduced fuel consumption somehow for faction towers. Reduced fuel/operational costs was the big draw for me. If you take this out, I will no longer have any use for factions POS's...


Read before posting.



read 53 pages? im getting around to it, but I just read the devblog and see no new information that would make my post old news...


Even if you'd read the last 5 pages or so before posting, your questions would have been answered (and we wouldn't have to put up with yet another 5 pages of the same old questions...).
almightybig
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#1057 - 2011-11-15 19:13:41 UTC
After years and years of dealing with this I am glad to see most of this being fixed. There is a big difference between something designed to be challenging and something that is just plain tedious. With recreation time becoming more and more at a premium for many of us, I am happy to see I will not lose any more of my time on these tasks and can get back to playing EVE instead of working it. I have another suggestion. How about something similar to the fitting tool we now use to instantly slap mods on our ships, for POS setup. Put the modules in the box.. have a template loaded. click the button and VOILA! A pretty POS set up exactly as the last 4 thousand POSes I have set up. When are you going to get rid of that rediculous drag to position green arrow nonsense?

Thanks for your thoughtful consideration.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1058 - 2011-11-15 20:04:35 UTC
Today's build on SISI shows no changes to the fuel block icons. Many posts complained that they are not easy to identify at a glance.

The simplest improvement would be to apply racial colors to the blocks.

But if you are going back to the art department, I've expanded on my redesign idea, from page 45.

How about distinctive shapes?

Caldari: Functional square blocks.
Gallente: "Fabrege" -style eggs, that a Gallente citizen would be proud to display alongside the other art objects present in every Gallente home.
Amarr: Disk shaped "Gold Coins," suggesting that no expense will be spared to fuel the fires of these symbols (POS's) of the Empire, seen throughout the galaxy. Potentially embossed with Amarr logo **
Minmatar: These blocks are hexagonal, pitted, and rusting. Defying logic, they work anyway.

**Logos could be applied to all, except, I think the Gallente "egg," because putting a political symbol on them would distrub the aesthetically pleasing green swirly patterns.Smile
Neo Agricola
P A R A B E L L U M
#1059 - 2011-11-15 20:48:46 UTC
@ CCP:

http://www.eveonline.com/en/crucible/article/3076/starbase-happy-fun-time

?????

perhaps you should consider to rewrite that...

some highlights:
- Blocks will be 50m3 each.
- The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block).
aso... :-)

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710

GavinCapacitor
CaeIum Incognitum
#1060 - 2011-11-15 20:54:04 UTC
Been reading this thread. New (modified) changes seem pretty good.

Alot of people asked for different color icons, ccp greyscale asked but the art team told him they were too busy.

However, I, like most eve players, can into the select tool and hue sliders in photoshop. Why doesn't one of *us* just do it? Its just a 5 minute tweak.

Also, as long as we are discussing things utterly trivial relative to the current improvements, wouldn't you think the 'fuel pellets' would be more like 'fuel packages' ? ie. they contain a certain amount of each resource (amount needed for one hour), but you wouldn't mix all of those - they would still be separate. You know, a bottle of compressed oxygen, a block of enriched uranium (shielded I would hope). They should look like containers (boxes) or something, not ice cubes.