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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

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Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2011-11-07 19:23:43 UTC
HelicoBacter wrote:
Alec Freeman wrote:


Instead of 1x 50m3 block have 1x 5m3. .



lol u want to haul pos fuel in frigate ?:P


we need logistic as its one of the profesions in game :P


Basically:

If i have to set up a Tower with fuel for 1 Month and you have 140k space and have to fuel it with a 10.000 k ship. How many runs do you have to take?

or if you use a Iteron V with 38 k space. it is still a pain in the ass.
Yeah you start to love those weekly runs where you are jumping fuel from System A to System B. Great way of spending time. NOT.


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paik
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#362 - 2011-11-07 19:24:20 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't think this is as good of a change as many of you believe. Expect this to increase your costs:

1) Fuel blocks - Nice concept. But, we still have to PI fuel and mine ice. And now, we have to manufacture blocks. Either we do that ourselves, adding steps to our fueling process or we purchase the blocks from someone else increasing our costs so they can get compensated. There is good news here, however. There's enough idiots in Eve to probably produce fuel cubes for below market value of the fuel components as is the case in the T3 production. So maybe the price increase will be mitigated.

2) Blueprints - are these going to be BPO's or BPC's. Either way, we now have an additional component to buy, regularly I would bet.

3) Increased fuel demands from faction towers overall increase demand of the entire market. There are a lot of faction towers. So, not only have faction tower operators received increased fuel costs but so has the rest of Eve to accommodate their increased demand.

4) There are no conservation methods available to fuel usage. I.E. You can't offline needless modules and save on ozone and heavy water. Typical of a tower is to have a small amount of cpu and pg unused as you have no module to only to use such a small amount. It's not a big savings or anything but now CCP is utilizing that for us and to a small degree increasing costs.

I'm not seeing how this is making so many people happy.



I might be wrong but perhaps you have never had to sit and calculate fuel for several towers. Then when you get to the tower you have to balance the fuel because basic calculations didnt work. Because the LO and HW numbers were always off. O and you didn't dare drag out the existing stack and replace it with the new because that time you did it and tower cycled and went offline. ill happily take tossing fuel in the cooker in a nice station or paying a little extra to buy pellats then dealing with current mechanics. This has now became a much less " lifesucking endeavour".
penelope pitbull
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2011-11-07 19:25:52 UTC
Really happy about the changes, except for 2 things which show this hasn't been worked through enough. Already the prices of HW and LOzone are spiking like crazy, because of the massive increase in future demand created by a) nerfing faction POS's b) removing the benefit of running your POS barebones.

The reason people pay 2 bill and up for a faction POS is mainly because of the reduced running cost, which has the added benefit of requiring less hauling etc. For us wormhole dwellers, making us have to haul even more crap in from empire (thanks for the huge pellet size too - thats just rubbing it in) is a right kick in the spuds.

So, please keep all the changes, but revisit the nerf to faction POS's and think carefully about the effect on logistics. Maybe an option to run at a lower pellet consumption rate with reduced CPU/PG would be cool for example?
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2011-11-07 19:26:09 UTC
The only thing I can see that is negative with this is the immersion factor. Sort of like we can now pretend that we actually use machinery and robotics to maintain the station...

But since I'm not a RP geek, I strongly approve and would also want to point out that... NI!
Brock Nelson
#365 - 2011-11-07 19:27:25 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't think this is as good of a change as many of you believe. Expect this to increase your costs:

1) Fuel blocks - Nice concept. But, we still have to PI fuel and mine ice. And now, we have to manufacture blocks. Either we do that ourselves, adding steps to our fueling process or we purchase the blocks from someone else increasing our costs so they can get compensated. There is good news here, however. There's enough idiots in Eve to probably produce fuel cubes for below market value of the fuel components as is the case in the T3 production. So maybe the price increase will be mitigated.


It will take 10 minutes to produce 4 Ice Block, so it will take 5 days to produce a month worth of fuel for a large tower


You can't produce more blocks than the supply from PI or Ice. That's called a bottleneck. If you're doing it all yourself, it's going to take you slightly longer to produce that month worth of fuel because now you have to produce blocks. But even if the blocks didn't require time and effort to produce, you can't produce blocks faster than the components you need to build them.

So....moot point is moot?


You're making 2 wrong assumptions here; 1. People value their time in this game (Free mineral anyone?) 2. POS owners makes their own PI and mines their ice, I think you're forgetting that mining ice and making PI is easily bottable.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Wiu Ming
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2011-11-07 19:29:02 UTC
Entity wrote:
Quote:
The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block). We talked to some large-scale starbase operators about this, and they told us that the main bonus of faction towers for them is actually that they last longer between fuel cycles. To try and compensate for the increased running costs, we've taken the above bay size increases and added +25% bay size on top of that for the "tier 1" faction towers, and +50% bay size for the "tier 2" ones. We're hoping people will find that a satisfactory tradeoff, but we're listening for further feedback on this change.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


eh - i'm strangely ok with this. yeah, the faction tower just got a tiny nerf, but worse things have happened. is it worth giving up in exchange for the new, (relatively) headache-free pellet system? probably.
ED209X
South Park Development
#367 - 2011-11-07 19:29:07 UTC
penelope pitbull wrote:
Really happy about the changes, except for 2 things which show this hasn't been worked through enough. Already the prices of HW and LOzone are spiking like crazy, because of the massive increase in future demand created by a) nerfing faction POS's b) removing the benefit of running your POS barebones.

The reason people pay 2 bill and up for a faction POS is mainly because of the reduced running cost, which has the added benefit of requiring less hauling etc. For us wormhole dwellers, making us have to haul even more crap in from empire (thanks for the huge pellet size too - thats just rubbing it in) is a right kick in the spuds.

So, please keep all the changes, but revisit the nerf to faction POS's and think carefully about the effect on logistics. Maybe an option to run at a lower pellet consumption rate with reduced CPU/PG would be cool for example?





This I agree with.
Sam Tully
State War Academy
Caldari State
#368 - 2011-11-07 19:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Tully
Starbases are large commercial/industrial installations analagous to factories and research facilties we have today. It makes sense that they require a wide variety of inputs to maintain and that different facilities can be operated with varying efficiencies.

I didn't think that the number of differnt types of fuels was a major roadblock to starbase operation. I've run multiple towers for years and it's frankly never crossed my mind.

Making us take all the same materials as before and simmer them down into a ubiquitous goo that we then deliver to the tower is not a meaningful change. (And from a gameworld perspective I can't imagine stuff like Robotics or Mechanical Parts will work very well floating in a vat of mystery liquid comprised mainly of radioactive radiator fluid - and that's only if the Oxygen is soluble in the combined liquids in the first place!)

At the end of the day I will be buying or making, hauling, and burning some material to keep a starbase online. That means that whatever the fuel actually is, it's just flavor, and you're watering it down.

You're just trading apples for oranges here, unless somthing significantly impacts (positively or negatively) either our game time or our wallets you are not making much head way.

Above all that though, please continue A) Working on FiS and B) Talking to us about it, this is getting better.

Thanks

Edit: As long as this is happening though, +1 to racial colors for the icons.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#369 - 2011-11-07 19:30:07 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't think this is as good of a change as many of you believe. Expect this to increase your costs:

1) Fuel blocks - Nice concept. But, we still have to PI fuel and mine ice. And now, we have to manufacture blocks. Either we do that ourselves, adding steps to our fueling process or we purchase the blocks from someone else increasing our costs so they can get compensated. There is good news here, however. There's enough idiots in Eve to probably produce fuel cubes for below market value of the fuel components as is the case in the T3 production. So maybe the price increase will be mitigated.


It will take 10 minutes to produce 4 Ice Block, so it will take 5 days to produce a month worth of fuel for a large tower


Yeah, that needs to be tuned downward by about a factor of 5x. It should only take you 1 day to produce enough fuel for a large tower in a hi-sec station (1.0x time multiplier). In an ammo array at a POS, that would then go much faster and it wouldn't excessively tie up stations.

(Maybe turn it down a full 10x - to keep from tying up every single manuf line in hi-sec.)
Wiu Ming
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2011-11-07 19:31:32 UTC
a little off topic, but...

"We're hoping people will find that a satisfactory tradeoff, but we're listening for further feedback on this change."

This line, in one form or another, has been popping up all over the place lately. Seriously, this is huge and the best Christmas present of all. Thank you CCP...
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2011-11-07 19:32:34 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't think this is as good of a change as many of you believe. Expect this to increase your costs:

1) Fuel blocks - Nice concept. But, we still have to PI fuel and mine ice. And now, we have to manufacture blocks. Either we do that ourselves, adding steps to our fueling process or we purchase the blocks from someone else increasing our costs so they can get compensated. There is good news here, however. There's enough idiots in Eve to probably produce fuel cubes for below market value of the fuel components as is the case in the T3 production. So maybe the price increase will be mitigated.


It will take 10 minutes to produce 4 Ice Block, so it will take 5 days to produce a month worth of fuel for a large tower


You can't produce more blocks than the supply from PI or Ice. That's called a bottleneck. If you're doing it all yourself, it's going to take you slightly longer to produce that month worth of fuel because now you have to produce blocks. But even if the blocks didn't require time and effort to produce, you can't produce blocks faster than the components you need to build them.

So....moot point is moot?


You're making 2 wrong assumptions here; 1. People value their time in this game (Free mineral anyone?) 2. POS owners makes their own PI and mines their ice, I think you're forgetting that mining ice and making PI is easily bottable.


I think I already addressed your first point. Your second point, POS owners do mine their own ice and do PI their own fuel. I do the PI in my corp for fuel. A bud does the ice mining. But, in either case of producing, not producing POS fuel, yes botters are in the game. Your point? How that changes anything is eluding me.

Don't ban me, bro!
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
#372 - 2011-11-07 19:32:43 UTC
I have a question about the blueprints.

Will ME affect in any way what it takes to make the blocks, in other words is there any wastage. I realize probably mostly would just affect isotopes, heavy water and liquid ozone, but it could make a big difference really.

Mad Shopper
Mad Industrial Consortium
#373 - 2011-11-07 19:33:33 UTC
Entity wrote:
Quote:
The one downside of this big-blocks approach is that it's impossible to give faction towers a fuel consumption bonus any more (you can't consume 2/3 of a block). We talked to some large-scale starbase operators about this, and they told us that the main bonus of faction towers for them is actually that they last longer between fuel cycles. To try and compensate for the increased running costs, we've taken the above bay size increases and added +25% bay size on top of that for the "tier 1" faction towers, and +50% bay size for the "tier 2" ones. We're hoping people will find that a satisfactory tradeoff, but we're listening for further feedback on this change.


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

The benefit of faction towers is two-fold:
- Longer run time before refuel
- Lower cost per period

You're basically removing the cost benefit.


Better solution:
Instead of producing 4 fuel blocks per batch, produce like 100 or some other larger quantity per batch (and obviously make the volume per block lower and the blocks consumed/cycle higher). then you can apply fuel reduction bonuses as per usual and everyone will be happy.

Again, a lot of people, including me, bought a faction tower to save fuel cost, which is not insignificant. Removing that makes the investment pointless if all it does is give more time between refuels, which with this change would be of questionable value since it will be much easier.


+1

But as a highsec pos owner I would list them in the other. It takes me all of 5-10 min for me to undock from my station, warp to my pos and refuel it. And since my tower will now use 100% LO and HW I'll probably have to refuel the tower MORE often after the patch as I'm well under on PG.
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#374 - 2011-11-07 19:34:19 UTC
Great work! Next expansion is shaping up to be awesome!
Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#375 - 2011-11-07 19:35:28 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Neo Agricola wrote:
Creat Posudol wrote:

That actually isn't a real issue, since it's just an investment. You can unanchor and resell it (if it hasn't gotten blown up of course) at any time, getting your "deposit" back :)


yeah. they are still woth 2 bil, because everyone wants them for there reduced Fuel need. oh wait...

They're worth 2bil because drop rates for faction POS gear have been ****** for a while, and very few if any new ones show up.



faction tower/module bpc's dont drop anymore cuz ccp was too lazy to change them to require Pi instead of before where it required minerals. instead of re-doing the faction bpc's they just did the "easy" thing and removed them.
Brock Nelson
#376 - 2011-11-07 19:36:45 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
You're making 2 wrong assumptions here; 1. People value their time in this game (Free mineral anyone?) 2. POS owners makes their own PI and mines their ice, I think you're forgetting that mining ice and making PI is easily bottable.


I think I already addressed your first point. Your second point, POS owners do mine their own ice and do PI their own fuel. I do the PI in my corp for fuel. A bud does the ice mining. But, in either case of producing, not producing POS fuel, yes botters are in the game. Your point? How that changes anything is eluding me.


I owned 4 POS Tower last month and didn't make any PI material or mined ice. My point is that you're assuming that every POS owner produce their own fuel. I don't need to tell you that there are dedicated PI producer that makes the good just to sell it to the market, not because someone wants to cut down T2 production or fuel cost.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Mentat Cthulhu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2011-11-07 19:37:19 UTC
Alec Freeman wrote:
Pfft. Removing faction bonuses is going to render faction towers almost useless and as they are the faction towers are an excellent isk sink for WH dwellers (cant speak for Kspace) because of the sole reason they cost less to fuel each month. The extra time is just a small bonus. It would not be hard to remedy this.

Instead of 1x 50m3 block have 1x 5m3. 10 of these blocks would run a small POS for 1 hours and 7 or 8 would run a faction tower (depending on tier) then just scale up from there (80 blocks for a large tower and 56-64 fuel blocks per hour for large faction depend in tier). Having a "not so simplefied" system would well make up for the bonus recieved from faction towers.

Whoever the "large starbase operators" you have been speaking too are either large nullsec directors who have more isk than sense or a terrible source of information (probably both).


The cost is the small bonus! Being able to refill it every 30days instead of 20days is a huge bonus!!! (except maybe if you're poor and run like 1-2 pos in some c2 wh).
Miraqu
Kneipenterroristen.
#378 - 2011-11-07 19:41:37 UTC
Why has it to be 1 - 2 - 4?

Can't a faction tower (large) just use 3?
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2011-11-07 19:43:00 UTC
Mentat Cthulhu wrote:
Alec Freeman wrote:
Pfft. Removing faction bonuses is going to render faction towers almost useless and as they are the faction towers are an excellent isk sink for WH dwellers (cant speak for Kspace) because of the sole reason they cost less to fuel each month. The extra time is just a small bonus. It would not be hard to remedy this.

Instead of 1x 50m3 block have 1x 5m3. 10 of these blocks would run a small POS for 1 hours and 7 or 8 would run a faction tower (depending on tier) then just scale up from there (80 blocks for a large tower and 56-64 fuel blocks per hour for large faction depend in tier). Having a "not so simplefied" system would well make up for the bonus recieved from faction towers.

Whoever the "large starbase operators" you have been speaking too are either large nullsec directors who have more isk than sense or a terrible source of information (probably both).


The cost is the small bonus! Being able to refill it every 30days instead of 20days is a huge bonus!!! (except maybe if you're poor and run like 1-2 pos in some c2 wh).


Errr. You havnt heard of holding extra fuel in your CHA?

+ Grtz HelicoBacter for quoting 1 line out of context.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#380 - 2011-11-07 19:45:34 UTC
Neo Agricola wrote:

Basically:

If i have to set up a Tower with fuel for 1 Month and you have 140k space and have to fuel it with a 10.000 k ship. How many runs do you have to take?

or if you use a Iteron V with 38 k space. it is still a pain in the ass.
Yeah you start to love those weekly runs where you are jumping fuel from System A to System B. Great way of spending time. NOT.


They make these ships called Orcas, Freighters and Jump Freighters...