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Two years later: Walking in Stations

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#261 - 2013-12-10 08:05:10 UTC
Ambassador Crane wrote:

What I would personally just like to see is an expansion that actually EXPANDS on pre-existing content that everyone could enjoy. In this case, WiS. Instead, they are putting resources into completely new content that again I read, from the bits of news they've given us, as only being accessible by a very small contingent in Eve.


How does WiS expand on pre-existing content, and how could everyone enjoy WiS? How is new space not accessible to everyone, but walking in stations is?

I appreciate your idea, but that really needs some more fleshing out in order to float.

.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#262 - 2013-12-10 09:25:47 UTC
i think the biggest bombs of the WiS release as we know it was the fact it consisted only of a single player room with no actual MMO quality and that was also the release of the monocles and such too if im not mistaken. 2 big reasons why the as is WiS launch are eagerly forgotten or just hated into the floor

I may need correcting on the monocle/store issue that might have been a different time?
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#263 - 2013-12-10 11:49:31 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Ambassador Crane wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.....


Throw in all of your listed problems with the game to the big pot with Factional Warfare problems, POS problems, Industry interface problems, UI issues, ship balance issues, mining being a complete bore, etc etc etc. .


I consider all of those things to be irritations rather than actual game-breaking flaws that need immediate and urgent action.

I also consider the lack of avatar content to be an irritation, but I rate it as a more important irritation that should be prioritized ahead of all that stuff. I know for a fact that I am not alone in this.

All of which just goes to prove that waiting for community consensus on when the time is right and in what order things should be prioritized would leave us doomed, stuck in development hell.

Personally, I feel like a cycle of working on new features for a bit then working on polish, then features, then polish would serve CCP well. I think we've had much polish and little feature of late, I hope we move into a "features" cycle soon, and I hope that cycle includes more avatar content.


Ultimately, thats the problem. A lot of people rate a sov revamp as the more important irritation (though irritation is a weak word), and they know for a fact they are not alone in that. Same for industry, same for POS-users, same for the mission runners crying out for something, anything new.

And asking for feature cycles isn't helping, because every feature cycle is a cycle when everyones concerns are shoved back, and another half-completed, not-as-promised defective product is tossed on the pile of things in need of iteration.

The fact is, avatar gameplay had its chance with Incarna. I'm sorry you didn't get what you want, I didn't get what I wanted (I, like many, was very clear at the time that if Incarna was sucking up every resource for two years, there was a very definite minimum expectation of what we should get, and not only did we not get that, we got what would barely qualify as an April fools release). CCP fumbled the ball, and we all suffered for it. And now, courtesy of the buildable stargates bull, everything is now in stasis for three years. The fact is, we have to expect ccp will half-arse this, and in three years time, I will still be arguing for a sov revamp, you will still be arguing for an avatar revamp, and a new flock of people will be arguing for a buildable-stargate-whatever revamp that they will need.
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#264 - 2013-12-10 13:05:47 UTC
I think if we vote demograhpic about it WiS would be off the table (as in it was ever on the table after 2009/10)

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#265 - 2013-12-10 13:23:02 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Ultimately, thats the problem. A lot of people rate a sov revamp as the more important irritation (though irritation is a weak word), and they know for a fact they are not alone in that. Same for industry, same for POS-users, same for the mission runners crying out for something, anything new.


Actually this is true.
If we analyze it we see as these critical areas for EVE developments had all their own dedicated failed expansion, roughly:

- Sov system: the horrible Dominion
- Improved PVE (well, the current one was already outdated 10 years ago): Incursions
- Industry: the empty and frustrating Tyrannis
- WiS: the horrible Incarna

These expansions were all a fail (for different reasons). And btw they're a sequence of fails.

These gameplay areas left unfinished, broken, whatever should be re-adressed by CCP instead of opening new fronts. Problem is: are all issues that require an higher level of managment, the simple, random polish and tweak here and there is not even close to give answer.

And actually, since years, company focus, resources and manpower is elsewhere, not on EVE. If we had all the energies actually deployed on Dust, WoD, Valkyrie and God know what else, in one year we could have all this not fixed, but at least handled properly.

So, problem is in the first place to bring EVE resources back. But to have a chance then there must be something appealling from the company point of view, something potentially able to expand EVE gameplay and playerbase, to give a fresh push to the game.
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#266 - 2013-12-10 13:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Ultimately, thats the problem. A lot of people rate a sov revamp as the more important irritation (though irritation is a weak word), and they know for a fact they are not alone in that. Same for industry, same for POS-users, same for the mission runners crying out for something, anything new.

And asking for feature cycles isn't helping, because every feature cycle is a cycle when everyones concerns are shoved back, and another half-completed, not-as-promised defective product is tossed on the pile of things in need of iteration.

The fact is, avatar gameplay had its chance with Incarna. I'm sorry you didn't get what you want, I didn't get what I wanted (I, like many, was very clear at the time that if Incarna was sucking up every resource for two years, there was a very definite minimum expectation of what we should get, and not only did we not get that, we got what would barely qualify as an April fools release). CCP fumbled the ball, and we all suffered for it. And now, courtesy of the buildable stargates bull, everything is now in stasis for three years. The fact is, we have to expect ccp will half-arse this, and in three years time, I will still be arguing for a sov revamp, you will still be arguing for an avatar revamp, and a new flock of people will be arguing for a buildable-stargate-whatever revamp that they will need.


Aside from the fact that Incarna didn't suck up development time for 2 years (Dust and the CARBON engine were made during that time, they should be what people point the finger at), I more or less agree. Not that sov is important, I don't give two ***** about sov. But that CCP are going to drown themselves in balancing effort, especially if they add a new area of space.
Ambassador Crane
Hellhound Productions
#267 - 2013-12-10 15:00:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ambassador Crane wrote:

What I would personally just like to see is an expansion that actually EXPANDS on pre-existing content that everyone could enjoy. In this case, WiS. Instead, they are putting resources into completely new content that again I read, from the bits of news they've given us, as only being accessible by a very small contingent in Eve.


How does WiS expand on pre-existing content, and how could everyone enjoy WiS? How is new space not accessible to everyone, but walking in stations is?

I appreciate your idea, but that really needs some more fleshing out in order to float.


You already have WiS in the version of the CQ. CQ is the pre-existing content. But beyond that, nothing. So you expand on it by adding the common areas. Add something beyond the locked door. And everyone can enjoy this because every time you dock at any station, it's available to you to enjoy. Whether or not you actually use it is your own choice. But I have a feeling if even those nay sayers against WiS were to dock up and their mining/trader/pirate buddies are in the bar playing a game of cards, they will want to join in.

So how is new space not accessible to everyone like WiS would be? From the way I understood it when CCP Seagull (I believe that's the name) was talking about it, this "new space" will only be accessible via the player built stargates. These stargates will take a lot of time and resources to build and is expected to be heavily contested and, from the sounds of it, destructible. That it will be a huge conflict driver because in essence, the one who builds the stargate will pretty much own the new space. That's cool. Conflict drivers are great. However, unless you're in one of these large alliances/coalitions that are actually able to complete the thing, do you think you will have much access to it? Do you think you'll get to explore or make use of all that new space on the other side? Call me a pessimist but I'm not seeing that happen.

Let me be clear though. I'm not against new space. I'm not against player built stargates. I'm not against them being a cause for conflict in Null. I'm not against adding new content exclusively for nullsec in general. But the way it was presented is that CCP sees this as being something that could be as big as Apocrypha. However, unless its as easily accessible to everyone as wormholes are, that's just not going to happen. Would a WiS expansion be as big as Apocrypha. I'm not loony enough to think that so I'll say no. But I remember when majority of people were all excited by the talk of WiS PRE-Incarna. It was just unfortunate that CCP gave us the crap they did with Incarna's release (one CQ, nothing to do that you couldn't do from hanger, no hanger at all but instead just a static image of a door, heavy CPU load, etc) which left a bad taste in everyone's mouth (mine included). So let them give us some mouth wash. Let them give us what we were once excited for. It's certainly going to take some balls on CCP's part to say, "we messed up the first release, but we're going to do this. We're going to prove to you how awesome it can be", even as all those nay sayers gripe about CCP putting resources into it's development. I believe in the long run though, it'll be worth it. For all of us.

Fleshed out enough? P
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2013-12-10 16:21:23 UTC
Eve is in great shape. Relations between the company and the players are in great shape. The company is working hard and innovatively on content that the bulk of the player base want to see implemented or polished. The future is very bright for spaceships and that future should not and hopefully will not, include walking in stations or anything like it. Trawling this stuff up is just an exercise in futility. Play the game you want to play, that game is probably not Eve Online.

The strength of the current position has been achieved by identifying and building on core strengths, those strengths are CCP's brilliant skill with spaceships and the players themselves. WIS brought only discord, disagreement and disunity - it weakened the game, it weakened the cohesion of the brand and the threatened to dilute the purity of the ideal. It was a bad idea with no sound foundation. You cannot build anything without a sound foundation, the house will just collapse. The Eve house may be an old one but it has the most solid of foundations and it is unequivocally loved by the people that choose live in it. It will house us and support the people that built it and continue to maintain it for many years to come.

Elizabeth Brown
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2013-12-10 16:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Brown
Walking in stations has no community support. Yea of course not. It's not like one of the biggest threads on the forums is about people asking for it. It's not like there are three of those threads on the first page of GD. It's not like the majority of people in those threads are pro-WiS.

Oh wait, it is. Blink

ps: And if your not talking about the forum, where are you getting your sources from then? What ethereal community is it that you speak of?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#270 - 2013-12-10 17:19:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Michael Turate wrote:
Play the game you want to play, that game is probably not Eve Online.


How many times do I have to explain that what I want to play is EVE online, but with added walking around,

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anslo
Scope Works
#271 - 2013-12-10 17:28:31 UTC
Welcome to GD Stitch.

Also, if CCP implements the whole hack into someone's CQ, ambulate in, and beat the living snot out of em....well I have no idea what the argument against ambulation will then be.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#272 - 2013-12-10 17:52:49 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Ambassador Crane wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Off the top of my head, Industry is hopelessly lacking, the entire PvE system is so rudimentary and anti-fun that it feels like a pre-beta placeholder for a proper system that fell unnoticed into a development black hole, the Dominion sov system was a failure of suicide-inducing perma-grind which has never been revisited, a good 75% of all modules in the database are hilariously useless, risk/reward balance is a joke, and the only significant isk sink appears to be when rich vets burn out and quit the game.....


Throw in all of your listed problems with the game to the big pot with Factional Warfare problems, POS problems, Industry interface problems, UI issues, ship balance issues, mining being a complete bore, etc etc etc. .


I consider all of those things to be irritations rather than actual game-breaking flaws that need immediate and urgent action.

I also consider the lack of avatar content to be an irritation, but I rate it as a more important irritation that should be prioritized ahead of all that stuff. I know for a fact that I am not alone in this.

All of which just goes to prove that waiting for community consensus on when the time is right and in what order things should be prioritized would leave us doomed, stuck in development hell.

Personally, I feel like a cycle of working on new features for a bit then working on polish, then features, then polish would serve CCP well. I think we've had much polish and little feature of late, I hope we move into a "features" cycle soon, and I hope that cycle includes more avatar content.


Ultimately, thats the problem. A lot of people rate a sov revamp as the more important irritation (though irritation is a weak word), and they know for a fact they are not alone in that. Same for industry, same for POS-users, same for the mission runners crying out for something, anything new.

And asking for feature cycles isn't helping, because every feature cycle is a cycle when everyones concerns are shoved back, and another half-completed, not-as-promised defective product is tossed on the pile of things in need of iteration.

The fact is, avatar gameplay had its chance with Incarna. I'm sorry you didn't get what you want, I didn't get what I wanted (I, like many, was very clear at the time that if Incarna was sucking up every resource for two years, there was a very definite minimum expectation of what we should get, and not only did we not get that, we got what would barely qualify as an April fools release). CCP fumbled the ball, and we all suffered for it. And now, courtesy of the buildable stargates bull, everything is now in stasis for three years. The fact is, we have to expect ccp will half-arse this, and in three years time, I will still be arguing for a sov revamp, you will still be arguing for an avatar revamp, and a new flock of people will be arguing for a buildable-stargate-whatever revamp that they will need.


sad but true. I don't see why CCP just cant expand the map now and drop in the player creatable stargates. I honestly for the life of me can't see any reason for any delay other than the fact that eve is in maintenance mode and perhaps one or two guys are working on Eve content!

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#273 - 2013-12-10 18:16:58 UTC
Maybe because people have been asking for it since way back in the day when I was just a noob shooting it out with mo0 and STK Scientific's original guys in 03 and 04.

Back when ships still had a crew stat and harvester drones dropped.

Here;s the thing: You keep repeating that everyone in eve hated WiS, but A) we haven't actually had WiS yet. and B) The 'Summer of Rage' had to do with pay to win. I know, i was there.

I might point out that many people who are quite well known for their being all about the space ships were in favor of WiS before they were against it. If you stroll over to, I believe, Ten Ton Hammer, you can read how the Mittani loved the idea.

A whole lot of people wanted it very badly, and then were very unhappy when they saw what CCP delivered.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#274 - 2013-12-10 18:24:56 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Maybe because people have been asking for it since way back in the day when I was just a noob shooting it out with mo0 and STK Scientific's original guys in 03 and 04.

Back when ships still had a crew stat and harvester drones dropped.

Here;s the thing: You keep repeating that everyone in eve hated WiS, but A) we haven't actually had WiS yet. and B) The 'Summer of Rage' had to do with pay to win. I know, i was there.


You could try not lying. Please link the post where I said everyone hates WiS.

Quote:


I might point out that many people who are quite well known for their being all about the space ships were in favor of WiS before they were against it. If you stroll over to, I believe, Ten Ton Hammer, you can read how the Mittani loved the idea.

A whole lot of people wanted it very badly, and then were very unhappy when they saw what CCP delivered.


Which has nothing to do with the present. CCP is concentrating on Flying space ships in a space ship game, this is what they should be doing, what many of us TOLD (myself included) them they should be doing.

I am less against the concept of WiS than i am the delusional nature of the WiS crowd. Look at this thread and you see WiS folks revising history, downplaying reality, trying to appeal to CCPs wallet and every other trick in the book to get what they want without an actual care of the potential hazards to the game we all claim to enjoy (and it's maker).

It is of course all Academic, CCP already said what they were going to do and have been saying it for a couple years now. as a lover of spaceships in a spaceship game, I'm on CCPs side in this.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#275 - 2013-12-10 18:28:26 UTC
Michael Turate wrote:
Eve is in great shape. Relations between the company and the players are in great shape. The company is working hard and innovatively on content that the bulk of the player base want to see implemented or polished. The future is very bright for spaceships and that future should not and hopefully will not, include walking in stations or anything like it. Trawling this stuff up is just an exercise in futility. Play the game you want to play, that game is probably not Eve Online.

The strength of the current position has been achieved by identifying and building on core strengths, those strengths are CCP's brilliant skill with spaceships and the players themselves. WIS brought only discord, disagreement and disunity - it weakened the game, it weakened the cohesion of the brand and the threatened to dilute the purity of the ideal. It was a bad idea with no sound foundation. You cannot build anything without a sound foundation, the house will just collapse. The Eve house may be an old one but it has the most solid of foundations and it is unequivocally loved by the people that choose live in it. It will house us and support the people that built it and continue to maintain it for many years to come.



so WIS will kill EVE.... ROFL...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Anslo
Scope Works
#276 - 2013-12-10 18:30:46 UTC
TBH you should just block Jenn. He literally repeats the same thing thinking it makes him right. It's always
1) Go play another game.
2) Eve is spaceships only.
3) You're acting entitled and are therefore irrelevant.

This is literally all he posts. He doesn't get the passion of the playerbase who like the idea od WiS and will just **** talk all day. Trust me, block him.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#277 - 2013-12-10 18:36:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is concentrating on Flying space ships in


CCP is doing nothing of the sort. They're 'concentrating' on new games. I don't know if you've noticed this, but actual 'new content' has been barely a trickle in the last few expansions.

We got two new ships! (And might get a 3rd one if they can figure out wtf they're doing with it) and three deployables. And a new login screen. and some new loot tables that include bpcs for things that already spawn in game, but had no bps on the market.

And some fixes for stuff they screwed up previously, or left out from previous expansions.

Woo! So much Space Content!
Kinvaryn
Deep Space Exploration and Industrial
#278 - 2013-12-10 18:39:26 UTC
A solution, since the two sides of the argument cannot meet in agreement:
> Let's branch development, "Internet Spaecchips" can have a small team producing new paint jobs on your pretty spaceships and giving them a "role title" and changing existing function every once in a while.
> The rest of the company should branch development to continue this harsh, space based sci fi simulation game known as EvE, without the clutter of limited thought and scope.
The only thing that is a constant between the posts of naysayers towards WiS is fear. Fear of not being able to lay claim to anyone at any time regardless of the protective measures taken to mitigate the risk towards such a claim.

Remember, now. Fear is the mind killer. Don't be so afraid of a singular branch of game play that you completely miss the creative force of potential that is the EvE Online universe.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#279 - 2013-12-10 18:49:54 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is concentrating on Flying space ships in


CCP is doing nothing of the sort. They're 'concentrating' on new games. I don't know if you've noticed this, but actual 'new content' has been barely a trickle in the last few expansions.

We got two new ships! (And might get a 3rd one if they can figure out wtf they're doing with it) and three deployables. And a new login screen. and some new loot tables that include bpcs for things that already spawn in game, but had no bps on the market.

And some fixes for stuff they screwed up previously, or left out from previous expansions.

Woo! So much Space Content!


This is a very good post in that it demonstrates the thing at the core of the WiS movement. Inability to appreciate the current EVE Online.

Rubicon is an excellent example, Few expansions gave me personally any content with which to play at all (i didn't complain, as i was already happy with EVE). THIS one blew my mind, it's changes so much about how I (as an explorer) do things. If all Rubicon did was add the mobile Depot it would have still be the single best expansion I've ever been a part of (being about to switch to defensive equipment before leaving a system where I just finished a plex has already saved my machariel FOUR times).

i think some people are kind of spolied, or they've played so long the game seems stale to them and they want something new. That's all personal problems, not a problem the game has to solve by constantly giving you more of what you think of is new content.


I made a comment in the "information portal" section a few weeks ago that seems apt here. CCP are saints because nothing they do is right. The community says "dump the jesus features and fix the small things". They fix the small things and everyone wants jesus features because rubicon is just a patch not an expansion.

The community says "damn it, it's a spaceship game, screw walking around and crap". CCP responds be refocusing on spaceships and people start yelling "hey, were's my WiS" lol. As soon as CCP responds to the "threadnaughts" about local and afk cloaking, the community will demand to know why they weren't consulted before CCP axes local and afk cloaking lol.

CCP literally can't win for losing Twisted
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#280 - 2013-12-10 19:09:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCP is concentrating on Flying space ships in


CCP is doing nothing of the sort. They're 'concentrating' on new games. I don't know if you've noticed this, but actual 'new content' has been barely a trickle in the last few expansions.

We got two new ships! (And might get a 3rd one if they can figure out wtf they're doing with it) and three deployables. And a new login screen. and some new loot tables that include bpcs for things that already spawn in game, but had no bps on the market.

And some fixes for stuff they screwed up previously, or left out from previous expansions.

Woo! So much Space Content!


This is a very good post in that it demonstrates the thing at the core of the WiS movement. Inability to appreciate the current EVE Online.

Rubicon is an excellent example, Few expansions gave me personally any content with which to play at all (i didn't complain, as i was already happy with EVE). THIS one blew my mind, it's changes so much about how I (as an explorer) do things. If all Rubicon did was add the mobile Depot it would have still be the single best expansion I've ever been a part of (being about to switch to defensive equipment before leaving a system where I just finished a plex has already saved my machariel FOUR times).

i think some people are kind of spolied, or they've played so long the game seems stale to them and they want something new. That's all personal problems, not a problem the game has to solve by constantly giving you more of what you think of is new content.


I made a comment in the "information portal" section a few weeks ago that seems apt here. CCP are saints because nothing they do is right. The community says "dump the jesus features and fix the small things". They fix the small things and everyone wants jesus features because rubicon is just a patch not an expansion.

The community says "damn it, it's a spaceship game, screw walking around and crap". CCP responds be refocusing on spaceships and people start yelling "hey, were's my WiS" lol. As soon as CCP responds to the "threadnaughts" about local and afk cloaking, the community will demand to know why they weren't consulted before CCP axes local and afk cloaking lol.

CCP literally can't win for losing Twisted


I don't agree with your position on WIS but that is a very good post. CCP are talented and have a tough time given the nature of the community they've got. I for one am grateful for all of the work they do on EVE but would like to see a start on WIS with a few small gameplay improvements to the CQ such as station D-scan. Actually it would satisfy me if they just built a PC version of dust that would start from the EVE login screen giving us the option of a 4th character slot for a dust bunnie which then loads the Dust client (maybe an optional client). That last idea would probably do more to integrate the dust/eve communities and probably save dust from dying out than anything else out there.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...