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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1221 - 2013-12-08 18:11:18 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I still maintain that bubble immunity is the only way this ship has a chance. i realize there's little to no chance of that happening because CCP probably doesn't want to proliferate bubble immunity to even more ships, but at least it would give it a usable niche.
.


Micro Jump Drive.



And that works to avoid the tackle that comes together with the bubble how exactly? (Still "voting" against cloak or bubble immunity... just curious.)


afaik only way to tackle a bs with mjd is a scram. so if they just have long points you should be fine.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1222 - 2013-12-08 18:17:03 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
And a Vindy goes for 1.1bil to 1.2bil. All depends on demand.



from what i understand there are two major factors in the price of serpantis ships.

1. there is not that many agents to farm for serp (which causes a supply issue)

2. the web bonus.


as for the nestor.

the only reason i see it being so damn expensive will be the supply issue. there are no 0.0 drops for the bpc so ratting wont help.

though i am not sure but do ghost sites drop soe bpc's? if not then maybe they should.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#1223 - 2013-12-08 18:34:43 UTC
That be cool if ghost sites dropped SoE BP, would help lazy people get them faster. All I was saying is the SoE BS won't stay at 2bil ISK, isn't gonna happen.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1224 - 2013-12-08 19:32:18 UTC
I am wondering if we could just leave the price discussion out of arguments, when talking about ship features. Let's make a healthy ship and then argue about a price and whatever possible reasons CCP would have for their pricing policy.

.
Miasmos
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2013-12-08 19:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Miasmos
To analyze the potential of current Nestor iteration:

[Armageddon, "Nestor"]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
[empty low slot]

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Curator II x5

Add 50% optimal, utility mids and rigs (drone scope/omnidir).

This does ~990dps to 100km with scorch and Curators. The nestor slot layout allows this with MJD and required tank/sensor range etc in exploration sites. 1200dps 50km fit is possible as well, but the tank would be iffy for combat sites then.

The new Nestor will be a quite good EM-THERM MJD sniper if it passes like this. Nothing spectacular, but certainly viable for exploration.

For this usage as well as traveling in nullsec, the INSTANT MJD activation would be really fitting. Instant MJD (click-jump) would allow fast repositioning in the sites as well as an evasion mechanic to pass gatecamps. Decloak-jump-align-warp would require a very strong interception / interdiction to catch, with the tackle having to zoom 100km to lock the Nestor down. This would make it viable as a nullsec explorer, but realistically catchable as well.
Quote:

INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1226 - 2013-12-08 19:59:18 UTC
Would interceptors or recons with OGB and heated tackle still have to zoom 100km?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1227 - 2013-12-08 21:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Would interceptors or recons with OGB and heated tackle still have to zoom 100km?



If they are set up properly like 55-60ish


It would be a near thing to actually save the battleship by warping.....and you have still have to land somewhere that the ceptor is going to be there 15-20 seconds in advance.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1228 - 2013-12-08 21:54:46 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.


Can you honestly say that anyone ever actually used the blops' ability to track around grid at 150m/s while cloaked?

I think it's the single most useless bonus in Eve.

People use blops ships over T1 battleships for the jump ability only.

Give the nestor covops, or give it the ability to cyno jump between wormholes, otherwise it's a useless trophy.

Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Wormhole lookouts FTW.

You'd be surprised how many people don't realise this...

this
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1229 - 2013-12-09 00:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
The blops speed bonus isn't useless at all. For one, it allows the ship to warp instantly out of cloak. It also allows you to move around somewhat (the extra speed compensates for the fact that you can't use prop mods while cloaked, except in the first few seconds). Without it blops would be extremely slow while cloaked and would be significantly easier to catch on gate (when they take them of course, as is sometimes necessary).

Combining blops speed bonus with 10 medium drone capability would make this a very fun and unique ship indeed. I think it would satisfy most of those that want a covert ops cloak, and it would also probably satisfy many those that want bubble immunity.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#1230 - 2013-12-09 01:27:07 UTC
I like the slotting and layout of this ship. But the visual aesthetic is annoying and as other's have pointed out just plain ugly. It also contradicts the Astero and Stratios's design (both wing/ring sections are in the back of the ship). It almost looks like someone took the Stratios and smashed the front end of it into another ship.

If I could ask for a design favor: just move the ring back and away from the very front, please? Mid to rear would look much better. Blink

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Maya VonNeumann
Eldorado Exploration Expedition
#1231 - 2013-12-09 02:01:51 UTC
Well. What can I say? It looks like a hand held electric mixer.

Nothing sexy looking about a hand held mixer...
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1232 - 2013-12-09 04:42:33 UTC
Petrified wrote:
I like the slotting and layout of this ship. But the visual aesthetic is annoying and as other's have pointed out just plain ugly. It also contradicts the Astero and Stratios's design (both wing/ring sections are in the back of the ship). It almost looks like someone took the Stratios and smashed the front end of it into another ship.

If I could ask for a design favor: just move the ring back and away from the very front, please? Mid to rear would look much better. Blink

i think it's better the way it is- if it was at the back, it'd look smaller, even if it was the same size... and it'd only look like a big Stratios What?

I like it a lot the way it is- And I doubt they'll change it, as Asgeir's designs have often been the final design and he's the art director Big smile

The ring pulls the rest of the ship along and I feel like it's much more imposing: at the back it'd make it look like some sort of attack battleship, but it's not. It's a drone ship Cool

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1233 - 2013-12-09 04:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Align then MJD, then warp as soon as you land because you'll already be travelling fast enough to warp Big smile

But if they have a short range scram (the long range ones don't stop it) you're in trouble.

It needs a MJD spool-up time reduction IMO

and +2 warp core strength Cool

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1234 - 2013-12-09 07:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Grunanca
Now I havent had time to read the whole thread, so Im not sure if this has been proposed.

The ship is going to be somewhere near 2 billion in price from the current LP cost on sisters LP. With this pricetag it should be a good amount better than a Dominix, but apart from the rep bonus it really isnt anything new.

How about keeping this ship in line with the Sisters ships and actually give it a cloaking bonus we already know from battleships?
Here im talking cloaked velocity that we know from the Black Ops line of ships. Give it either the ability to use a covert ops bridge og even better, give it a jumpdrive.

I know its a lot of new buffs, but replace the drone bonus with the black ops abilities. Keep the armour bonus and repper bonus. You now have a ship we have been longing for in a looooong time. The expensive logistic ship we can jump in with our black ops and actually take on fights instead og just ganking way smaller gangs. This ship would have the range bonus a cloaked T3 ship cannot to be able to repair all ships that jump in through a covert cyno without moving,

Grun
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1235 - 2013-12-09 09:40:14 UTC
Miasmos wrote:
To analyze the potential of current Nestor iteration:

[Armageddon, "Nestor"]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
[empty low slot]

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Curator II x5

Add 50% optimal, utility mids and rigs (drone scope/omnidir).

This does ~990dps to 100km with scorch and Curators. The nestor slot layout allows this with MJD and required tank/sensor range etc in exploration sites. 1200dps 50km fit is possible as well, but the tank would be iffy for combat sites then.

The new Nestor will be a quite good EM-THERM MJD sniper if it passes like this. Nothing spectacular, but certainly viable for exploration.

For this usage as well as traveling in nullsec, the INSTANT MJD activation would be really fitting. Instant MJD (click-jump) would allow fast repositioning in the sites as well as an evasion mechanic to pass gatecamps. Decloak-jump-align-warp would require a very strong interception / interdiction to catch, with the tackle having to zoom 100km to lock the Nestor down. This would make it viable as a nullsec explorer, but realistically catchable as well.
Quote:

INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!
INSTANT MJD!



instant MJD is way overpowered. No ship shoudl get that powerful free of jail card like that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1236 - 2013-12-09 11:08:47 UTC
Grunanca wrote:
Now I havent had time to read the Whole thread, so Im not sure if this has been proposed.

The ship is going to be somewhere near 2 billion in price from the current LP cost on sisters LP. With this pricetag it should be a good amoiunt better than a Dominix, but apart from the rep bonus it really isnt anything new.

How about keeping this ship in line with the Sisters ships and actually give it a cloaking bonus we already know from battleships?
Here im talking cloaked velocity that we know from the Black Ops line of ships. Give it either the ability to use a covert ops bridge og even better, give it a jumpdrive.

I know its a lot of new buffs, but replace the drone bonus with the black ops abilities. Keep the armour bonus and repper bonus. You now have a ship we have been longing for in a looooong time. The expensive logistic ship we can jump in with our black ops and actually take on fights instead og just ganking way smaller gangs. This ship would have the range bonus a cloaked T3 ship cannot to be able to repair all ships that jump in through a covert cyno without moving,

Grun



Damn right.
Ju'Rei Oh
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1237 - 2013-12-09 11:10:13 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
I am wondering if we could just leave the price discussion out of arguments, when talking about ship features. Let's make a healthy ship and then argue about a price and whatever possible reasons CCP would have for their pricing policy.


The price is part of the discussion because of the source. The source is servant sisters of EVE loyalty. The value of each loyalty point from any corporation is determined by the reward with the best yield. In this case, the Astero. Meaning If one were to farm out 400,000 LP from the sanctuary, they could either buy 20 Astero BPCs and sell either the BPC or the constructed ships for 100-120m ISK, for a net of around 2.2 billion isk... or they could lose money.

So whether or not the market price for the Nestor is 2.2 billion isk or nothing (the latter seeming more likely), and whether or not one chooses to sell or keep their Nestor (again, latter is most likely), they will still pay, at the very least, 2.2 billion isk in loyalty points.

The price of the Nestor is already determined. Unless the market for the Astero crashes (not likely), the nestor is, right now, worth 2.2 billion isk.

Thus, the general gist of this thread so far is the stats proposed in the original (and subsequent) posts simply do not fit the current value of the nestor.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1238 - 2013-12-09 11:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
There's a lot of talk on here about the price of the Nestor, using SoE LP as a reference point.

But it seems to me that since there are now SoE level 4 agents in Osmon (and Osmon is packed with mission runners these days), the supply side of SoE products must gradually become more saturated.

Slowly, as the demand of SoE cruisers eases, this has to have a downward pressure on SoE LP conversion rates, so it's not inconceivable to me that the price of Stratios could eventually drop to ISK 250m, putting the Nestor at around 1Bn.

ISK 250m seems about right to me for a stratios, and at that level I would buy one for initiating combat (essentially using it as a covert heavy interdiction cruiser). So people like me would add demand pressure help to keep SoE LP at that level.

Even at ISK 1Bn the Nestor's current hull bonuses don't make a compelling argument for buying one (at least for me), but I think pitching our expectations at capabilities matching a price tag of 2Bn is a mistake.

I would be interested to hear answers from CCP Rise to this question:

"What does CCP perceive as the role(s) of this ship? What functions is it intended to perform?"

I think once we know that, we can have a rational discussion as to what bonuses it should receive.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1239 - 2013-12-09 12:13:18 UTC
Ju'Rei Oh wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
I am wondering if we could just leave the price discussion out of arguments, when talking about ship features. Let's make a healthy ship and then argue about a price and whatever possible reasons CCP would have for their pricing policy.


The price is part of the discussion because of the source. The source is servant sisters of EVE loyalty. The value of each loyalty point from any corporation is determined by the reward with the best yield. In this case, the Astero. Meaning If one were to farm out 400,000 LP from the sanctuary, they could either buy 20 Astero BPCs and sell either the BPC or the constructed ships for 100-120m ISK, for a net of around 2.2 billion isk... or they could lose money.

So whether or not the market price for the Nestor is 2.2 billion isk or nothing (the latter seeming more likely), and whether or not one chooses to sell or keep their Nestor (again, latter is most likely), they will still pay, at the very least, 2.2 billion isk in loyalty points.

The price of the Nestor is already determined. Unless the market for the Astero crashes (not likely), the nestor is, right now, worth 2.2 billion isk.

Thus, the general gist of this thread so far is the stats proposed in the original (and subsequent) posts simply do not fit the current value of the nestor.


I don't care. Only because CCP set the price this high - being wrong or not doing so - should not influence the discussion on how to achieve a healthily balanced ship. Rather it is the other way around. The value of the ship should be determined by the players after the ship is balanced in a way that makes it neither overpowered nor underwhelming.

The ISK and time to aquire a ship (not value) is a meaningless statistic, without first creating a ship that has value to players. And not just two of them screaming to leave it like the current proposal to have a better Dominix for Lvl4 missions.

If and when the ship has value to enough players, we can start arguing about the appropriate amount of ISK and time required to aquire that ship.

.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1240 - 2013-12-09 12:59:23 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:


I don't care. Only because CCP set the price this high - being wrong or not doing so - should not influence the discussion on how to achieve a healthily balanced ship. Rather it is the other way around. The value of the ship should be determined by the players after the ship is balanced in a way that makes it neither overpowered nor underwhelming.

The ISK and time to aquire a ship (not value) is a meaningless statistic, without first creating a ship that has value to players. And not just two of them screaming to leave it like the current proposal to have a better Dominix for Lvl4 missions.

If and when the ship has value to enough players, we can start arguing about the appropriate amount of ISK and time required to aquire that ship.


I agree that a ship's value should come from its use to players but in reality that only shifts prices slightly when compared to the cost of producing the ship in the first place. In most instances, the price of a ship is based on the cost of materials plus a mark up to account for man hours put into its production. In this case, the mineral cost (if any) is negated by the LP cost, in man hours, to produce.

The Nestor suffers in this regard for being a pirate battleship (LP cost must considerate other ships in class), Highsec markup, and having plenty of high value and in demand items available with the same LP (inflating the isk/LP ratio). All these factor come together to produce a ship that will cost ~2.2 bil, no matter what its capabilities are. So the issue comes to why anyone would fork over the LP to put a ship on the market when no one is willing to purchase it and they have so many other, easier to sell options to choose from.

Other Pirate faction BSs don't suffer from these problems nearly as much and are further suppressed by their availability outside of LP stores. This lowers there price and, along with having an established value in fleets, increases their demand, further encouraging people to produce them.

P.S. I do hope it doesn't appear that I'm picking on you Savira, your comments are just easier for me to respond to intelligently Big smile