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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Author
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1181 - 2013-12-08 04:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Would it help make the ship useable if they gave it a covops jump drive with a brand-new "SoE bridge generator" that can only be used by SoE ships, a clone bay, an SoE-only AoE doomsday that fully repairs all allied ships within 100km (useable once an hour), made the ring on the front rotate and gave it roving searchlights underneath?
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1182 - 2013-12-08 04:40:53 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Would it help make the ship useable if they gave it a covops jump drive with a brand-new "SoE bridge generator" that can only be used by SoE ships, a clone bay, an SoE-only AoE doomsday that fully repairs all allied ships within 100km (useable once an hour), made the ring on the front rotate and gave it roving searchlights underneath?



As silly as all of that is, it would almost make it worth the price.
Aitu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1183 - 2013-12-08 06:42:18 UTC
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1184 - 2013-12-08 06:45:40 UTC
Aitu wrote:
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.


Scan bonuses on a battleship make no sense, ever.
Aitu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1185 - 2013-12-08 06:59:56 UTC
Aitu wrote:
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.



Ok, I know making the Nestor a Black Ops when it is just a faction BS is skipping a step, so step 2 could be make a blops version of the Nestor. The Nestor will be on par with other faction BS if a little confused but the blops version makes sense.
Aitu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1186 - 2013-12-08 07:10:39 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Aitu wrote:
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.


Scan bonuses on a battleship make no sense, ever.


Scan bonuses would make sense on a day tripping BS. Especially a RR group.

They do not make sense on a ship that can't move to explore safely.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1187 - 2013-12-08 07:17:28 UTC
Aitu wrote:
Aitu wrote:
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.



Ok, I know making the Nestor a Black Ops when it is just a faction BS is skipping a step, so step 2 could be make a blops version of the Nestor. The Nestor will be on par with other faction BS if a little confused but the blops version makes sense.



Doesn't need to be a full blops, just needs a jump drive.

....the screams about the train for JDC V will be legendary if they did it though.
Rain6636
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#1188 - 2013-12-08 07:51:29 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Aitu wrote:
Aitu wrote:
Step 1: Make black ops able to create short lived (4 hours?) Wormholes that lead to a random system. The module has a long cool down ( also 4 hours?). Now Black Ops are useful in wormhole space.

Step 2: Make the Nestor a Black Ops ship. Now the scan bonuses make sense.



Ok, I know making the Nestor a Black Ops when it is just a faction BS is skipping a step, so step 2 could be make a blops version of the Nestor. The Nestor will be on par with other faction BS if a little confused but the blops version makes sense.



Doesn't need to be a full blops, just needs a jump drive.

....the screams about the train for JDC V will be legendary if they did it though.

that would be funny
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1189 - 2013-12-08 08:03:05 UTC
I really don't think allowing the ship to use 10 drones would even be overpowered, as long as it could only field 10 mediums or smalls. It would also work nicely with a bonus to repair drones too (in keeping with the logistics idea). In fact I'd really, really prefer this over yet another sentry battleship. You can blop sentry battleships. You can't blob with combat drones, they'll just get smartbombed.

It would also be such a novelty that a lot of players would really want to fly one, instead of this complete mess we have now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Aitu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1190 - 2013-12-08 08:11:46 UTC
Black ops only needs JDC 4? I may be a little bias, because I can almost fly them, but I would say blops only because they really lose out in wormholes. Also, mass limits.
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1191 - 2013-12-08 09:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
A jump drive, especially a covert capable one, would be a massive boost to the Nestor's ability to travel around Kspace but wouldn't help it at all in Wspace, where its reduced mass will really shine. A cloaked movement bonus would allow the Nestor to travel much more quickly from wormhole to wormhole, scouting its way through and running any sites it finds. I think a lot of us agree that the probe bonus is nothing more than a curiosity as no self respecting BS pilot would fly through hostile space without a scout, but the virus strength bonus and reduced mass would make it viable for running wh ghost sites and supporting a small fleet in combat. The major problem though is it would spend far to much time exposed and vulnerable without a cloak speed bonus to allow it to avoid detection and align cloaked.

EDIT: I'm not saying that having both wouldn't be awesome and allow the ship to roam where ever the wind takes it along side it's smaller cousins. Just that CCP needs to decide where they envision the Nestor being flown primarily, whether it is through the wild spaces of Anoikis, or the lawless expanses of New Eden.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1192 - 2013-12-08 10:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Roy Alleyne wrote:
A jump drive, especially a covert capable one, would be a massive boost to the Nestor's ability to travel around Kspace but wouldn't help it at all in Wspace, where its reduced mass will really shine. A cloaked movement bonus would allow the Nestor to travel much more quickly from wormhole to wormhole, scouting its way through and running any sites it finds. I think a lot of us agree that the probe bonus is nothing more than a curiosity as no self respecting BS pilot would fly through hostile space without a scout, but the virus strength bonus and reduced mass would make it viable for running wh ghost sites and supporting a small fleet in combat. The major problem though is it would spend far to much time exposed and vulnerable without a cloak speed bonus to allow it to avoid detection and align cloaked.



So you don't agree that no WH-dweller in their right mind would use even a cloaked battleship for scouting? Very well. You are obliged to that.

Does one really need a Battleship for Ghost sites? How so? I never did one, so please enlighten me.
I believe that the Stratios is more than enough for hacking the other sites. Even if you want to sit there and tank them, while your fleet finishes off the Sleepers.
The drone damage is also questionable regarding wormhole sites.

So while the mass might be a nice gimmic, I'd say spare it for a ship that is really useful and desinged towards wormholes and make the Nestor a ship that supports exploration in known space.

A battleship designed for WH use (PVE!) would then have:

- a weaponsystem, that doesn't need cap (other than drones)
- instead of a dronebay brings T2 smartbomb range to whatever the Sleeper-frigates orbit range is
- be armor tanked to leave medslots for ewar or cap mods
- a damage profile that can be evened out easily (I would say with omni resists, but I guess that will never happen to a non special edition ship)
- lots of basehitpoints to eliminate the need for a plate
- that nifty reduced mass.

And even that design would not need a cloak bonus, because it will die even if it has one and meets a tackler on the other side. It is still a battleship!

.

Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1193 - 2013-12-08 10:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Savira Terrant wrote:
Roy Alleyne wrote:
A jump drive, especially a covert capable one, would be a massive boost to the Nestor's ability to travel around Kspace but wouldn't help it at all in Wspace, where its reduced mass will really shine. A cloaked movement bonus would allow the Nestor to travel much more quickly from wormhole to wormhole, scouting its way through and running any sites it finds. I think a lot of us agree that the probe bonus is nothing more than a curiosity as no self respecting BS pilot would fly through hostile space without a scout, but the virus strength bonus and reduced mass would make it viable for running wh ghost sites and supporting a small fleet in combat. The major problem though is it would spend far to much time exposed and vulnerable without a cloak speed bonus to allow it to avoid detection and align cloaked.



So you don't agree that no WH-dweller in their right mind would use even a cloaked battleship for scouting? Very well. You are obliged to that.

Does one really need a Battleship for Ghost sites? How so? I never did one, so please enlighten me.
I believe that the Stratios is more than enough for hacking the other sites. Even if you want to sit there and tank them, while your fleet finishes off the Sleepers.
The drone damage is also questionable regarding wormhole sites.

So while the mass might be a nice gimmic, I'd say spare it for a ship that is really useful and desinged towards wormholes and make the Nestor a ship that supports exploration in known space.

A battleship designed for WH use (PVE!) would then have:

- a weaponsystem, that doesn't need cap (other than drones)
- instead of a dronebay brings T2 smartbomb range to whatever the Sleeper-frigates orbit range is
- be armor tanked to leave medslots for ewar or cap mods
- a damage profile that can be evened out easily (I would say with omni resists, but I guess that will never happen to a non special edition ship)
- lots of basehitpoints to eliminate the need for a plate
- that nifty reduced mass.

And even that design would not need a cloak bonus, because it will die even if it has one and meets a tackler on the other side. It is still a battleship!


My Impression of putting the virus stregth bonus on a Battleship hull is for use in high level Ghost sites since you don't need to travel very far for the first can and can survive the damage. I agree with you that the Stratios performs extremely well for Data/Relic sites both in wh and Kspace and has been shown to handle Ghost sites but only by sacrificing a lot for added tank.

Drone use in whs is more difficult than anywhere else but is still effective. As the only weapon system, drones will get eaten by sleepers but when your ship can draw aggro with turrets of its own and is careful to keep its drones within easy recall range then they are still viable as a weapon system. Both of these capabilities are within the Nestor's capability by deploying sentries for long/med ranges and light drones for frigates that get close.

To be clear I don't want to restrict the Nestor into wh exploration. I am an exploration pilot that spends about the same amount of time roaming low, null, and wh and enjoy each for their challenges and rewards. I mearly wish to allow the Nestor to reach its full potential and see as much of the universe as I do.

P.S. Battleships are fleet vessels for the exact reason that they are easily tackled and countered by fast ships getting under their guns. A scout would check to see if there was a tackler on the other side of a jump, while a cloak would be to avoid giving the enemy the ability to easily pin its location down since the only time it would need to decloak would be right before entering warp. This can be utilized anywhere to move between systems but only if your cloaked velocity is equal to or greater than your max velocity. A jump drive accomplishes the same thing while in Kspace with a scout checking for danger before calling it in with the added bonus of landing wherever you want to in the system.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1194 - 2013-12-08 11:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Roy Alleyne wrote:


My Impression of putting the virus stregth bonus on a Battleship hull is for use in high level Ghost sites since you don't need to travel very far for the first can and can survive the damage. I agree with you that the Stratios performs extremely well for Data/Relic sites both in wh and Kspace and has been shown to handle Ghost sites but only by sacrificing a lot for added tank.

Drone use in whs is more difficult than anywhere else but is still effective. As the only weapon system, drones will get eaten by sleepers but when your ship can draw aggro with turrets of its own and is careful to keep its drones within easy recall range then they are still viable as a weapon system. Both of these capabilities are within the Nestor's capability by deploying sentries for long/med ranges and light drones for frigates that get close.

To be clear I don't want to restrict the Nestor into wh exploration. I am an exploration pilot that spends about the same amount of time roaming low, null, and wh and enjoy each for their challenges and rewards. I mearly wish to allow the Nestor to reach its full potential and see as much of the universe as I do.



Thanks for the clarification. Would you mind to be a bit more specific regarding the Stratios(or any really) fit needed to survive the Ghost sites in a wormhole? Otherwise I will not be able to consider whether I would stick to the Stratios or even cheaper or afford a Nestor instead. (I am not saying the price is important for the balancing, just a personal descision for this usecase.)

You make a good point about the drones there.
I am of the personal opinion that any PVE fitting should be optimized for income. The first part of the income equation is of course ISK/h. Since I think there is a second part, being how long you can concentrate on the given task, I optimize my fitting not for dps, but ease of use with then as much dps left as possible. This especially comes in handy in environments where being ganked while doing PVE is more than likely since avoiding or otherwise reacting to the threat is more important than finishing a plex/anom/mission/whatever a minute quicker.
This is why drones are out of question for use against Sleepers in my opinion. And a ship designed towards WH use would also accomodate to the fact that using drones on Sleepers is really demanding. Hence my opinion on the current Nestor design regarding WH use, which was kind of proposed by CCP as far as I know (did not watch the stream myself).

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?

.

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1195 - 2013-12-08 12:01:33 UTC
Very nice design, finaly we have the ship that have no ups and downs, only back and front. Big smile
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1196 - 2013-12-08 12:37:00 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:


...
You make a good point about the drones there.

...
This is why drones are out of question for use against Sleepers in my opinion. And a ship designed towards WH use would also accomodate to the fact that using drones on Sleepers is really demanding. Hence my opinion on the current Nestor design regarding WH use, which was kind of proposed by CCP as far as I know (did not watch the stream myself).

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


drones are perfectly fine in WH space vs sleepers. Sleepers tend to target ECM ships, target painters, high dps and drones in that order. I use an ishtar with gardes in c3 space with no problem - i lose one every 20 sites or so.

It's not the drones that make the Nestor unusable in WH space, it's the shininess. This is what will happen in my corp if one is seen on d-scan:

Scout: "Nestor on d-scan, not in POS"
FC: "OMFG! CALL EVERYONE, I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE ASLEEP, CTA! 2Billion on the killboard coming up, Wooooo!"

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1197 - 2013-12-08 12:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Savira Terrant wrote:


Thanks for the clarification. Would you mind to be a bit more specific regarding the Stratios(or any really) fit needed to survive the Ghost sites in a wormhole? Otherwise I will not be able to consider whether I would stick to the Stratios or even cheaper or afford a Nestor instead. (I am not saying the price is important for the balancing, just a personal descision for this usecase.)

You make a good point about the drones there.
I am of the personal opinion that any PVE fitting should be optimized for income. The first part of the income equation is of course ISK/h. Since I think there is a second part, being how long you can concentrate on the given task, I optimize my fitting not for dps, but ease of use with then as much dps left as possible. This especially comes in handy in environments where being ganked while doing PVE is more than likely since avoiding or otherwise reacting to the threat is more important than finishing a plex/anom/mission/whatever a minute quicker.
This is why drones are out of question for use against Sleepers in my opinion. And a ship designed towards WH use would also accomodate to the fact that using drones on Sleepers is really demanding. Hence my opinion on the current Nestor design regarding WH use, which was kind of proposed by CCP as far as I know (did not watch the stream myself).

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


Unfortunately, what I know about a Stratios' ability in ghost sites is second and third hand so I would point you to Podcasts or blogs for fit suggestions. I agree that a PVE fit ship needs to be as survivable and profitable as possible with solo ships able to disengage quickly and fleets able to withstand a gank. I also agree that drones can be difficult to manage at the best of times and are generally less than ideal for wh and pvp. However, they do offer an unchallenged amount of flexibility on the fly, especially when you consider the size of SoE drone bays. Sentries sniping pluses can be swapped out in seconds for med drones to attack that cruiser uncloaking off your port side, light drones to engage the frigate hounding your fleet mate, or ECM to gtfo.

As for Logi drones I haven't the faintest idea. I have never actually seen one used, even by the few Onerios pilots I have had the pleasure of flying with.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1198 - 2013-12-08 13:04:10 UTC
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1199 - 2013-12-08 13:06:08 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:


...
You make a good point about the drones there.

...
This is why drones are out of question for use against Sleepers in my opinion. And a ship designed towards WH use would also accomodate to the fact that using drones on Sleepers is really demanding. Hence my opinion on the current Nestor design regarding WH use, which was kind of proposed by CCP as far as I know (did not watch the stream myself).

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


drones are perfectly fine in WH space vs sleepers. Sleepers tend to target ECM ships, target painters, high dps and drones in that order. I use an ishtar with gardes in c3 space with no problem - i lose one every 20 sites or so.

It's not the drones that make the Nestor unusable in WH space, it's the shininess. This is what will happen in my corp if one is seen on d-scan:

Scout: "Nestor on d-scan, not in POS"
FC: "OMFG! CALL EVERYONE, I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE ASLEEP, CTA! 2Billion on the killboard coming up, Wooooo!"


Wormhole lookouts FTW.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1200 - 2013-12-08 13:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.


Can you honestly say that anyone ever actually used the blops' ability to track around grid at 150m/s while cloaked?

I think it's the single most useless bonus in Eve.

People use blops ships over T1 battleships for the jump ability only.

Give the nestor covops, or give it the ability to cyno jump between wormholes, otherwise it's a useless trophy.

Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Wormhole lookouts FTW.

You'd be surprised how many people don't realise this...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".