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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Author
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1201 - 2013-12-08 13:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.


Can you honestly say that anyone ever actually used the blops' ability to track around grid at 150m/s while cloaked?

I think it's the single most useless bonus in Eve.

People use blops ships over T1 battleships for the jump ability only.

Give the nestor covops, or give it the ability to cyno jump between wormholes, otherwise it's a useless trophy.

Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Wormhole lookouts FTW.

You'd be surprised how many people don't realise this...


No Ship could use a jump drive between Anoikis systems without CCP releasing a map showing exactly where all the system where in relation to each other and their distances. This would then allow Capitol ships to jump between systems without being restricted by limited mass wormholes or even bridging fleets between two systems not even remotly connected by wormholes at any time.

I do admit that it would be an interesting change but if this was implemented tomorrow, we would see Capitol ships from C5 and C6 Corps jumping into holes all the way down C1 and BlOps bridging in T3s, recons, and bombers right next to them. The main problem would be the disruption of the quality over quantity mentality that CCP has fostered so carefully within Anoikis and shift the balance of power from the small single system corps to large jump equipped power blocks practically over night.

P.S. The cloaked speed bonus is for not being where the enemy saw you land and for aligning out and warping safely.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#1202 - 2013-12-08 13:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Savira Terrant wrote:

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


I never lost a single one, flying logi in Incs for years, so the answer to this question is probably no. However they are not that useful without the logi bonuses on them and more or less a wast on a ship that got 125m³ and a drone damage bonus.

As for the Nestor if you want to make it a useful ship in a RR gang(like the paladin and Kronos was before you nuked them), it needs to be more forcused and useful at this role:

- reduce the guns to 3, give it a 100% damage bonus, otherwise there are no reasons at all to ever fit guns on it
- this also gives it a lot of utility high slots, what are kind of nice for RR gang setups like they where on the old armor marauders
- it needs way better cap and cap recharge, the only reason the paladin could be a laser fitted RR BS was that the strong capacitor with a extra cap bonus on top of it, another option would be a cap use reduction for RR, similar to logi hulls
- change the slot layout to 5/7, since the split of laser and drones requires split damage mods as well if you want to utilize it for more than just as pure logi BS
- another utility bonus like for remote sensor boosters or target painters would be a lot better than the hacking bonus, to add useful utility and more reasons to field it in armor gangs

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1203 - 2013-12-08 14:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Roy Alleyne wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.


Can you honestly say that anyone ever actually used the blops' ability to track around grid at 150m/s while cloaked?

I think it's the single most useless bonus in Eve.

People use blops ships over T1 battleships for the jump ability only.

Give the nestor covops, or give it the ability to cyno jump between wormholes, otherwise it's a useless trophy.

Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Wormhole lookouts FTW.

You'd be surprised how many people don't realise this...


No Ship could use a jump drive between Anoikis systems without CCP releasing a map showing exactly where all the system where in relation to each other and their distances. This would then allow Capitol ships to jump between systems without being restricted by limited mass wormholes or even bridging fleets between two systems not even remotly connected by wormholes at any time.

I do admit that it would be an interesting change but if this was implemented tomorrow, we would see Capitol ships from C5 and C6 Corps jumping into holes all the way down C1 and BlOps bridging in T3s, recons, and bombers right next to them. The main problem would be the disruption of the quality over quantity mentality that CCP has fostered so carefully within Anoikis and shift the balance of power from the small single system corps to large jump equipped power blocks practically over night.


there is currently a map (player made) of wormhole space, so that information is already out there in the public domain. as for cynoing in fleets etc... i gather you've never lived in a wormhole before cause otherwise you'd know that its not possible to light regular or covert cynos in wormholes so the ability to bridge or jump is just not possible.

and just fyi, jumping from any k-space to a wormhole using a jump drive just is not possible in any way at all. the distance between the closest w-space and k-space systems is approx 1100 lightyears
Roy Alleyne
Dark Knowledge.
#1204 - 2013-12-08 14:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Roy Alleyne
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

there is currently a map (player made) of wormhole space, so that information is already out there in the public domain. as for cynoing in fleets etc... i gather you've never lived in a wormhole before cause otherwise you'd know that its not possible to light regular or covert cynos in wormholes so the ability to bridge or jump is just not possible.

and just fyi, jumping from any k-space to a wormhole using a jump drive just is not possible in any way at all. the distance between the closest w-space and k-space systems is approx 1100 lightyears


I actually do live in Wspace, have done so for a few months now, and have found the player made maps very helpful for navigation when I was first starting out. I was also fully aware of the fact that cynos are useless in Anoikis. However I was responding to a post in the hypothetical and assumed that readers would understand that if jump drives were allowed to work, then cynos would as well. I do apologize for this blatant oversight and will strive to better my responses in the future. Cool
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1205 - 2013-12-08 14:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
The Djego wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


I never lost a single one, flying logi in Incs for years, so the answer to this question is probably no. However they are not that useful without the logi bonuses on them and more or less a wast on a ship that got 125m³ and a drone damage bonus.


I am aware that Logi Drones are weak without bonus. My idea would be to replace the drone damage with a drone rep bonus and shift the damage to the lasers somehow. So that you have to choose between rep drones or full damage.
Edit: Also remember we are talking about large rep drones in this case.

.

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#1206 - 2013-12-08 14:59:34 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


I never lost a single one, flying logi in Incs for years, so the answer to this question is probably no. However they are not that useful without the logi bonuses on them and more or less a wast on a ship that got 125m³ and a drone damage bonus.


I am aware that Logi Drones are weak without bonus. My idea would be to replace the drone damage with a drone rep bonus and shift the damage to the lasers somehow. So that you have to choose between rep drones or full damage.
Edit: Also remember we are talking about large rep drones in this case.


A full set of T2 large RR drones reps 450 armor every 5s, or 90 armor per second. A T2 RR does 384 every 4.5s or 85.3 armor per second. Adding gang link bonuses you get up to 116,4 armor per second out of them and this is for a single utility high slot, not even taking the 50% bonus of the hull into account, while the drone bay can be utilized for 600-700 dps on a drone focused hull.

I think keeping the utility on the reps and gearing the drones to damage will work out better. From my own experience, flying something similar with the old paladin as full RR gang setup worked very good in combination wtih logis or other marauders, it is a bit like having a halve of a logi build into your dps BS on grid, and I guess with the bonuses it it more like having 1-2 logis in form of one BS, that still can deal ok dps with drones.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1207 - 2013-12-08 15:26:22 UTC
Looks awesome, even though I think there should be 7 turrets? At least looks so on that concept.

Also, without a ring it would look a lot better (and you don't have cloak bonus so might be able to deal with it somehow?)
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1208 - 2013-12-08 15:40:51 UTC
First won't cost over 2bil, hell I doubt even 2bil after a couple months.

Second, she's good as is. Only thing you MIGHT want to add is making her able to jump through covert and regular cynos
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1209 - 2013-12-08 15:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
I still maintain that bubble immunity is the only way this ship has a chance. i realize there's little to no chance of that happening because CCP probably doesn't want to proliferate bubble immunity to even more ships, but at least it would give it a usable niche.

The fact is, it's way too expensive to see any real use in PvP. The Machariel is already considered overpowered and you can have one of those for 900m, why would I use this for 3 billion unless it's even more overpowered? It's not going to be made that strong, and for good reason.

For group PvE it's also hopeless, the only thing it has on Marauders for this task is the probe bonus, and you're simply going to be better off with 2 Marauders and a ship with a probe launcher than you are with 3 of these. In addition, the two Marauders and Tengu combined cost less than one of these.

Bubble immunity would let solo players use it to roam around and do exploration content. The super-low mass means you could do the "MWD/cloak" trick with an afterburner and get into warp in 5 seconds, making you pretty damn hard to catch. I mean, it still wouldn't be great for that because a Tengu can run a 10/10 or FSP and this can't, but at least you could do SOMETHING with it.

If you found your way into a C3 with a nullsec static this is probably the best ship you could have as a solo player, as it'll clear sites faster than any other probe-bonused ship, and you'd never have to restock on ammo either. W-space systems with nullsec statics are pretty much as safe as they get. They're usually deserted and the static to 0.0 only opens from the WH side so as long as you never warp to it you only have to worry about gankers from roaming wormholes and WH PvPers rolling their static to find you, both of which are easily countered by just watching for new signatures.

Quote:
First won't cost over 2bil, hell I doubt even 2bil after a couple months.

Second, she's good as is. Only thing you MIGHT want to add is making her able to jump through covert and regular cynos


Yeah, it pretty much will. The Stratios is holding steady at a 450m ISK cost and that guarantees a price of at least 2.5bil for this ship as long as it holds, and that's assuming demand for Sisters LP doesn't spike when it's released.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1210 - 2013-12-08 15:58:28 UTC
holding for the first month? EVER ship when they come out is over pirces for the first month or 2. I HIGHLY doubt it will stay at 450mil and the Nestor will be 2bil or over. Isn't going to happen
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1211 - 2013-12-08 16:26:39 UTC
The price of the Stratios might drop a little but I don't see it falling too much further. Barring idiots and people selling at a loss for quick money, the price floor of the Nestor will be regulated by whatever the other Sisters items can be profitably sold for.

In other topics, I think Rise can sufficiently deduce from all of this that the Nestor really really needs something along the lines of a cloaking bonus. Replace the RR amount bonus with it since people seemed so willing to trade amount for range.

And get someone to fix the forums again. This week every single post I make is being eaten the first time I post it, no matter how long it takes to write.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1212 - 2013-12-08 16:35:31 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
holding for the first month? EVER ship when they come out is over pirces for the first month or 2. I HIGHLY doubt it will stay at 450mil and the Nestor will be 2bil or over. Isn't going to happen

You seem confused as to how this all works.

This isn't a T1 ship with a BPO anyone can just buy, research, and make more till it drops to mineral cost+markup..

This ships price is Reliant on the LP Cost. At the moment Sisters of Eve is the highsec ISK for LP in the game, due to the limited ways you can get it, and how expensive it is to convert Concord LP to it. That price isn't going to drop any time soon. Sisters of Eve LP was always rather expensive, and the addition of 2 new hulls only increased it. Adding a BS ontop of that will increase it again.

There is very limited running of SOE in Null due to where their space is located. Most is done in Highsec, and that could become scary if CCP ever decides to cut back on the lvl4 agents back to what they were Before the SOE ships were announced. (aka 1 single lvl4 agent for all of Highsec ).

End of the day, as long as there is demand for SOE LP Store items, the SOE LP will remain high. BS, Cruiser, Frigate, Launchers, Probes, etc. They are only increasing the demand for that LP, thus keeping the prices where they are.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1213 - 2013-12-08 17:00:06 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Savira Terrant wrote:

Edit: I never tried this, but will Logistic Drones draw aggro from Sleepers or other NPC?


I never lost a single one, flying logi in Incs for years, so the answer to this question is probably no. However they are not that useful without the logi bonuses on them and more or less a wast on a ship that got 125m³ and a drone damage bonus.


I am aware that Logi Drones are weak without bonus. My idea would be to replace the drone damage with a drone rep bonus and shift the damage to the lasers somehow. So that you have to choose between rep drones or full damage.
Edit: Also remember we are talking about large rep drones in this case.


A full set of T2 large RR drones reps 450 armor every 5s, or 90 armor per second. A T2 RR does 384 every 4.5s or 85.3 armor per second. Adding gang link bonuses you get up to 116,4 armor per second out of them and this is for a single utility high slot, not even taking the 50% bonus of the hull into account, while the drone bay can be utilized for 600-700 dps on a drone focused hull.

I think keeping the utility on the reps and gearing the drones to damage will work out better. From my own experience, flying something similar with the old paladin as full RR gang setup worked very good in combination wtih logis or other marauders, it is a bit like having a halve of a logi build into your dps BS on grid, and I guess with the bonuses it it more like having 1-2 logis in form of one BS, that still can deal ok dps with drones.


Yes, the bonused drones do that kind of damage. But shifting the damage from drones to turrets is not supposed to lower the total amount of dps.
Yes, actual Remote Repair Systems do repair more HP and do get a benifit from gang boosting.

But having a ship like that would be the exact powercreep version of the Dominix which I would just hate to see.
Instead I proposed a ship, that does more damage and reps less. While using no cap for reppers, which in turn can be destroyed.

The point is, while you are absolutely correct in your comparisons, I made such a proposal deliberately. The whole proposal is (quite) a few pages back.
I'd like to try and refrain to repost the same thing over and over again - like a few others in this thread, but if you care to find it, I would be delighted to hear your comments.

.

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1214 - 2013-12-08 17:21:30 UTC
Well I'm not confused. To think a BS will stay over 2bil is well just crazy. Same with the cruiser after a couple months it will lower to 350mil or lower. The BS will be 1.5 or lower too. You can say whatever you like, but once people aren't willing to pay your prices anymore one of two things will happen. One you all will lower your prices, like always OR this will be rare on market because people are getting them themselfs.

And to say a ship needs to be OP because it will cost more is well just stupid, and one of the reasons CCP rarely listens to us now. The ship already does more then ANY T1, or faction ship does by far.

Also remember you can get the BPs and ships from Sanc for the same price as other faction ships. So you will have people like me doing that and low balling you all just enough to get mine sold but yours not, and still making a HUGE profit haha.

I do think the SoE BP should drop somewhere like the other pirate factions, and I think at some point CCP
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1215 - 2013-12-08 17:26:23 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
I still maintain that bubble immunity is the only way this ship has a chance. i realize there's little to no chance of that happening because CCP probably doesn't want to proliferate bubble immunity to even more ships, but at least it would give it a usable niche.
.


Micro Jump Drive.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1216 - 2013-12-08 17:27:43 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
The BS will be 1.5 or lower too.


and a rattlesnake goes for 435 000 000 isk...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1217 - 2013-12-08 17:39:55 UTC
And a Vindy goes for 1.1bil to 1.2bil. All depends on demand.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1218 - 2013-12-08 17:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
MeBiatch wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I still maintain that bubble immunity is the only way this ship has a chance. i realize there's little to no chance of that happening because CCP probably doesn't want to proliferate bubble immunity to even more ships, but at least it would give it a usable niche.
.


Micro Jump Drive.



And that works to avoid the tackle that comes together with the bubble how exactly? (Still "voting" against cloak or bubble immunity... just curious.)

.

Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#1219 - 2013-12-08 17:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Eggeras
I also don't mind the immunity idea, but I still think allowing it to be able to jump through cynos would be better. Either way though, after it needs to be left be. AND NO covert cloak people!
Rain6636
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#1220 - 2013-12-08 17:56:00 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Why not give the Nestor the cloaking bonus of a Black Ops ship without the rest? Then it can be cloaky (by BS standards) while not actually duplicating T2 abilities fully. This idea makes a lot more sense to me than RR bonuses.


Can you honestly say that anyone ever actually used the blops' ability to track around grid at 150m/s while cloaked?

I think it's the single most useless bonus in Eve.

People use blops ships over T1 battleships for the jump ability only.

Give the nestor covops, or give it the ability to cyno jump between wormholes, otherwise it's a useless trophy.

Zvaarian the Red wrote:

Wormhole lookouts FTW.

You'd be surprised how many people don't realise this...

yes and it's more like 325m/s, quite fast actually. flew straight down out of an engagement on a hole involving dictor bubbles, and left the flashies searching for a widow kill. I was in my... falcon / widow hole scouting gang.

not that I would care if a 2.2 b isk ship featured a blops cloak, it's still way too expensive.