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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#361 - 2013-10-17 20:45:27 UTC
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?

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Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2013-10-17 20:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Ranger 1 wrote:

Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.


Don't worry, we'll show you.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-10-17 20:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
I have not read the full thread so please forgive my ramblings if someone already mentioned this. Allow cov-ops cloaks on jump freighters. That way one would use a blockade runner to deliver any size siphons and pick up the goo, have ample space to store it in and when the time is right, or one gets bored, take off with the spoils to wherever. Imagine all the plex, somer blinks and other isk sinks this will open up even more.....I'm being semi sarcastic. Lol Can I also getz what once was a very rare Scorpion? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

I am still waiting for a lot more info on the other deployables because if my alliance can begin harrasing nullbears in their own territory and make some isk in the process, then we just might stop mining and running lvl 4s and set up roams to get us some payback for all the griefing they and their alts do in highsec. Spend some of the billions we got saved selling skilled up toons to noob null and w bears. No need to come looking for us, we might just drop in of our own free will. Why not seed the shield breacher skill books in game? Then invent a new module and make it so that there is a chance to breach a POS's shield so that industrials can get in and loot. Even better, make it so the owner does NOT get infomed of the breach. Also bring back mines, imagine the lols if one could place mines INSIDE the shields of a POS after looting. Oh the horror!

I really don't think this is what CCP is after....but depending on how they implement siphons one could start a troll extortion racket in low - null sec. Pay me or patrol every system you "own" everyday, no more pvp blobs for all of your members every day, ever, you nullbear you - and so sorry small timer, give us your isk or man that POS 24/7/365. The scammers could be limitless, specially if the siphons are small and cheap and insurable.
Bear
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#364 - 2013-10-17 20:46:33 UTC
And I still don't see where do we need a module like this.

CMS or CCP whats the point of this? is this part of something bigger and better or is this just a one time thing because you ran out of good ideas?

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2013-10-17 20:48:06 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?



POS guns and EWAR take almost a minute to lock frigate sized targets.


Of course you probably have never seen a nullsec POS.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#366 - 2013-10-17 20:48:14 UTC
Will it be able to steal from biochemical reactors?

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2013-10-17 20:48:30 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
xttz wrote:
It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".

What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so.


CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems.


You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#368 - 2013-10-17 20:49:30 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2013-10-17 20:49:59 UTC
xttz wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
xttz wrote:
It should be a bit of a red flag when CCP come up with the cheapest griefing tool in EVE for years, and GoonSwarm are the ones saying "hang on that's a bit much".

What exactly do you lot think this is going to do to the Tech 2 market when virtually no one is getting moon materials without interruption? We are actually in by far the best position, in that we have a bunch of newbies who will run around finding and killing these things for a bounty. Can smaller alliances and corps say that?

The Tech 2 materials market has just been handed back to big alliances. We're going to grief the **** out of everyone if this remains unchanged, and make bank while doing so.


CFC space is not behind some impregnable wall. Anyone can get into CFC systems at anytime, and with the new interceptor changes, people will be able to get in much easier. CFC/GSF will not be able to grief EVE with this feature. In fact the opposite will occur. Random entities will start to grief every CFC/GSF system, and I'm not talking about renter systems.


You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?


See, when you just spell it out that way, it is far less funny later.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#370 - 2013-10-17 20:51:31 UTC
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";

i see allot of tears and allot of "oh my god it's end of the world!!!", but to be honest, noone will try for reall, to siphon all the moons in deklein for example; yes some ppl will deploy some for gigles and ****, but considering how fast this things die, noone will just deploy and lose some hundreds of them daily. also the 10 mil price is at current material prices, if too many of this things die who knows how much will cost tomorrow...

what most likelly will happen will be that moons in low sec/npc 0.0 will become unprofitable for the large coalitions that live far from the area, so the residents will take control of them, and that in my humble opinion is a good thing for eve
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#371 - 2013-10-17 20:55:51 UTC
This thread makes it very clear POSes supposed to be AFK money generators :)

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#372 - 2013-10-17 20:57:04 UTC
xttz wrote:
You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?


lol.

this assumes you can "make a fortune" by using these primarily as a grief mechanic.

i find this to be highly implausible.

IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?

But with this drop and forget gameplay, you can bet your ass people will start noticing them fast, and at 10m cost, with nothing in return, it's almost surely not going to help you any.

For it to be a gain, the 10m siphon has to deal over 10m in economic damage, on average.

I find this unlikely.

If you want to waste ISK to grief people, there are plenty of other ways, such as suicide-killing freighters in highsec.....Except the difference there, is that suicide-killing freighters can actually be profitable. I don't think burning billions of ISK and getting nearly nothing in return will work to your advantage.

I can see it as a legitimate disruption tactic in nullsec -- but things are different there. Often the goal isn't to profit off of an attack, but to just hurt the other guy as much as possible.

If you want to throw away billions for no gain, go for it, the entire community will laugh at you....

And while they laugh, they will happily obliterate all your moon mining operations in your undefended, overgrown nullsec territory.

Can't wait for this patch.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#373 - 2013-10-17 20:58:36 UTC
gascanu wrote:
this is the first tool in a long time CCP give to small/medium alliances in npc 0.0 or low sec that will help them fight the large coalitions, and put a better defence of "their space";
.... It's like you've never played EvE before. Any tool that a small group can use a large group will be able to use more effectively. That being said, these siphons will far less effective than the panic-stricken Goons would like to make them out to be.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#374 - 2013-10-17 20:59:16 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?

i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#375 - 2013-10-17 21:00:56 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
xttz wrote:
You're absolutely right. There's no way our thousands of players and trillions of ISK will allow us to grief entire swathes of space alongside manipulating the T2 materials market for further gain. I mean it's not like we've ever made a fortune from broken game mechanics like this before, is it?


lol.

this assumes you can "make a fortune" by using these primarily as a grief mechanic.

i find this to be highly implausible.

IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?

But with this drop and forget gameplay, you can bet your ass people will start noticing them fast, and at 10m cost, with nothing in return, it's almost surely not going to help you any.

For it to be a gain, the 10m siphon has to deal over 10m in economic damage, on average.

I find this unlikely.

If you want to waste ISK to grief people, there are plenty of other ways, such as suicide-killing freighters in highsec.....Except the difference there, is that suicide-killing freighters can actually be profitable. I don't think burning billions of ISK and getting nearly nothing in return will work to your advantage.

I can see it as a legitimate disruption tactic in nullsec -- but things are different there. Often the goal isn't to profit off of an attack, but to just hurt the other guy as much as possible.

If you want to throw away billions for no gain, go for it, the entire community will laugh at you....

And while they laugh, they will happily obliterate all your moon mining operations in your undefended, overgrown nullsec territory.

Can't wait for this patch.

On a dyspro moon you start making money after 5 hours, i guess large alliances will have to setup patrol schedules for their starbases :)

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#376 - 2013-10-17 21:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

IF you siphon every valuable moon in a region, AND it goes unnoticed...maybe you got ahead? somehow?

i'd say "you'll see how" but you probably won't, you'll just assume the prices were supposed to do that


the prices will definitely rise, mostly because the giant carebear alliances who supply 90%+ of the moon goo (of which goonswarm is one example) will see their operations crumble.

this will make it more worth it to moon mine in general, but people will have to do it carefully to make a good profit, not just plant a fuckload of moon mining ops and nearly forget about them....like goonswarm.....
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2013-10-17 21:01:59 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
This thread makes it very clear POSes supposed to be AFK money generators :)



POSes are already ''Kill yourself'' levels of logistics nightmare. To set up a POS on a moon worth anything, you need to spend much ISK and be able to field multiple fleets.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#378 - 2013-10-17 21:02:00 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.


Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen.

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#379 - 2013-10-17 21:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Tzar Sinak wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.


Seems to me that there is risk to deploying these things even if not a potent risk. I have not read anywhere in this thread a need to improve automated POS response times. Not likely to happen.


Covops haulers, bubble immune interceptors with covert cynos and a few black ops battleships to bridge around an entire region. A dedicated squad of maybe 10 guys can and will blanket all R64s in a region in less than an hour and for negligible cost.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#380 - 2013-10-17 21:04:40 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.

Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula.