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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Krios Ahzek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#341 - 2013-10-17 20:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?



Rule of thumb:
Anything that can be used by small, incompetent corporations to hurt large alliances can be used by competent, well organized, large alliances to completely trash entire segments of the economy and drive small corporations out of business.

You've been warned this time.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#342 - 2013-10-17 20:21:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Courthouse wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:
I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires.

Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse Twisted


K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped.


Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood.

They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?


Not to mention the things will have to be replaced by the same guys that claim they are inconveniencing us, every single day, or multiple times a day to actually have their desired effect.

I applaud Goon ice interdiction and general highsec griefing, and acknowledge that they are more organized to accomplish such a large-scale grief, but siphoning every single moon every single day seems a little unrealistic.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!

Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2013-10-17 20:22:04 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Mister McDerp wrote:
Solution to part of the crying is simple. Make it so it actually just affect moonharvesters. People that sit on worthless moons won't care much and people that have moons worth it are at least actually big or at least powerful alliances.


hahaha you have no idea why people are saying this is a bad feature do you.


I'm running POS's myself, I'm pretty sure I know exactly why its terrible.

I should have probably said it different. But I'm too lazy to actually do that... urgh.
Well I said it would be a solution to PART of the crying (mine for example, i wouldn't care much). It really wouldn't be good solution though, I'll admit to that.

A good solution would be a complete POS revamp without making lives of people tending to them even more miserable. A lot of suggestions have been made here how a Siphon Module could be implemented in a meaningful way with that.
But we all know thats not gonna happen soon.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#344 - 2013-10-17 20:22:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that?

Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. Smile


no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog


Quote:
The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material.
It has a capacity of 1200 m³. If it is full, it stops stealing.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#345 - 2013-10-17 20:23:48 UTC
Courthouse wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Courthouse wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal wrote:
I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires.

Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse Twisted


K. We live and play in our space and will just blow them up shortly after they are dropped.


Hey, I just resubbed after a bit away from the game. Can you entertain me with crazy stories about how awesome it is to fly around and shoot stationary objects in space that don't shoot back for hours on end? I'm in a nostalgic mood.

They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?


Let's say, for instance, it's 10 minutes. You can drop at least 2 in that time if you're scanning, let's say 4-5 if you know the planet/moons you're going for. At 10m per module, they're cheap enough to keep battleships busy for as long as they want to stay logged in.


Well if we go with your estimate, that means I can log in a couple of my other accounts (or more likely just grab a couple of buddies) and down each in a couple of minutes... not much longer than it takes to gank a ratter in a bomber. Smile

I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to jerk your chain, but I don't see that as a serious issue.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2013-10-17 20:28:09 UTC
Courthouse wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.

However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.

You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.

All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.


it's not about that. Every not-CFC POS we interrupt drives down supply, thus increasing profits on CFC POS-mined minerals. We spent weeks interdicting ice, huge logistical efforts to shut down Jita and we basically frogstomp hostiles starting by cutting their economies out from underneath them before actually fighting for sov. If you think we won't find people to harass lowsec pubbies by stealing and/or choking supply for our own economic beneift, you're sorely misinformed.


Except the biggest losses to price are going to come from the giant alliances like goonswarm.

You don't defend your territory. I know this because I fly in it all the time.

While you are out harassing the "small time pubbies" who provide a relatively minor amount of moon goo, your own infrastructure will be collapsing beneath you...

Which I think is, the entire point of this addition Cool
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#347 - 2013-10-17 20:28:24 UTC
Balmer Banshot wrote:
People seem to forget that to take a valuable moon requires a large fleet and several hours of time. Lets say 200 man hours. If a fight or two happens, tack on the additional cost of lost ships etc. Some of my favorite times in null have been large fleet fights over moons.

Individuals only reap the benefits of moons in the form of alliance/corporate funds (ie: ship replacement programs, selling the goo to pay for SOV fees, system upgrades etc.).

I'm glad that at least one person understands what POSes actually used to be. POS income isn't dependent on some dude running a JF once a month. POS income is dependent on military force to capture and hold moons. Unfortunately CCP seem intent on destroying this mechanic and replacing it with PvE/clicking/logging in to check overview.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2013-10-17 20:29:52 UTC
The amount of people complaining about the griefing potential of this device is truly astounding. I'm tempted to fish up all the mining and industrial hate threads that crop up constantly, and how we're told "it's a cutthroat game, deal with it"

Very much looking forward to enjoying these lovely little toys in my helios.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2013-10-17 20:30:04 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?


we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly

ccp didn't listen

aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly

I think the goons by and large have done a huge amount of good for the game catching issues like this.

However, claims that in response you will spam thousands of these seems a bit silly to me, sorry.

You simply aren't going to find pilots willing to devote the time necessary every day to actually do an activity like that effectively. You need to check these things every, single, day... to collect the goods so that they will continue to siphon.

All jokes aside, I really do think most of your pilots will decide they have better things to do after a few days of that.


I want to quote this for later. You don't need to collect anything.

So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that?

Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. Smile


You drop 3 and nuke the entire output.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#350 - 2013-10-17 20:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them

a) invulnerable to POS guns (even manned)
b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.

That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight they can't just avoid (or they lose moongoo).
KAT3
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#351 - 2013-10-17 20:31:20 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.



Have you given any thought at all to balance. I see and understand the ramifications and potential isk for those who siphon Poses. I fail to see what has been put in place as a balance to help the pos owner in his attempt to keep his pos free of siphons. And having the API lie about the contents is really disturbing. If you are starting down the path of API lies -- what is next??
Sturmwolke
#352 - 2013-10-17 20:31:51 UTC
Set POS guns to attack everyone except blues - there's your automatic notification for POS owner that something fishy is going on.
There's probably a window of 10-20secs the first shot is fired, deploying a syphon unit wouldn't be a big isssue ... but getting the loot might be tricky in anything less than a BR :)

So, accordingly, POS min/maxing owners will definitely deploy structures with best scan res to serve as early warning e.g faction small AC/hybrid/laser batteries - 300mm scan res
Wonder if the prices for these will bump up a bit :D
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#353 - 2013-10-17 20:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
gascanu wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that?

Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. Smile


no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog


Quote:
The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material.
It has a capacity of 1200 m³. If it is full, it stops stealing.

Thanks, I thought I saw that somewhere. Yes, I was at work and to lazy to recheck the blog. Smile

Again, many thanks.

So, I'm correct and these are virtually useless as a "fire and forget" grief tool. To keep siphoning a crew would have to empty a siphon every 20 hours (raw materials) or every 48 hours (processed materials).

This is assuming someone hasn't popped it for giggles (let alone the POS owner or his friends) in the few minutes it takes to blow one up (with no negative effects).

Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#354 - 2013-10-17 20:32:28 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Balmer Banshot wrote:
People seem to forget that to take a valuable moon requires a large fleet and several hours of time. Lets say 200 man hours. If a fight or two happens, tack on the additional cost of lost ships etc. Some of my favorite times in null have been large fleet fights over moons.

Individuals only reap the benefits of moons in the form of alliance/corporate funds (ie: ship replacement programs, selling the goo to pay for SOV fees, system upgrades etc.).

I'm glad that at least one person understands what POSes actually used to be. POS income isn't dependent on some dude running a JF once a month. POS income is dependent on military force to capture and hold moons. Unfortunately CCP seem intent on destroying this mechanic and replacing it with PvE/clicking/logging in to check overview.


this coming from Fcon military powerhouse ...
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#355 - 2013-10-17 20:33:02 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?
You don't use a BS. You pull a POS gun out of storage, deploy it, man the gun, and then go make a sandwich. Done. Who cares how long it takes when you are AFK? These things are pointless.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#356 - 2013-10-17 20:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?



Rule of thumb:
Anything that can be used by small, incompetent corporations to hurt large alliances can be used by competent, well organized, large alliances to completely trash entire segments of the economy and drive small corporations out of business. à

You've been warned this time.


You got 3 coalitions in nullsec. 2 of them don't have much of space and will guard much easily their POSs than the 3rd that is a bit stretched (you know which is the 3rd). Now add to the equation lowsec and 0.0 Npc entities and the fact that the CFC is most hated of all those 3.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#357 - 2013-10-17 20:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
They don't look to terribly difficult to take down actually. How long do you estimate for a single BS to remove one?
You don't use a BS. You pull a POS gun out of storage, deploy it, man the gun, and then go make a sandwich. Done. Who cares how long it takes when you are AFK? These things are pointless.

Very very true if the POS owner (or one of his corp mates) spots it.

However what I was trying to point out was that quite often these things will get blown up by people that happen to spot them while out doing other activites... and if they have blue status to the POS owner (or just to be obnoxious) will swing in for a couple of minutes to grab a free kill mail. No obsessive logging in to check or POS guns required.

Let me be clear, I'm not bringing this up to be a ass to the goons. They usually are pretty good at pointing out what they consider to be dangerous or faulty game mechanics. I'm just saying a couple of aspects of the game mechanics involved has been overlooked in some of the worst case scenario's presented.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-10-17 20:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Why would you blow it up when you can take out the moongoo, leave, and repeat later for as long as it takes the owner to notice?

*edit* misread. Obviously if you're blue you wouldn't do that.

You wouldn't do that, right?
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2013-10-17 20:41:43 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


So even with full they keep siphoning? Seriously, do you have a source for that?

Because if you do, that's a pretty simple thing to change. Smile


no,wtf ppl, read the damn blog


Quote:
The Small Mobile Siphon Unit can steal 60 units of raw material or 25 units of processed material.
It has a capacity of 1200 m³. If it is full, it stops stealing.

Thanks, I thought I saw that somewhere. Yes, I was at work and to lazy to recheck the blog. Smile

Again, many thanks.

So, I'm correct and these are virtually useless as a "fire and forget" grief tool. To keep siphoning a crew would have to empty a siphon every 20 hours (raw materials) or every 48 hours (processed materials).

This is assuming someone hasn't popped it for giggles (let alone the POS owner or his friends) in the few minutes it takes to blow one up (with no negative effects).

Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.


The key is what I pointed out in previous posts. Multiple siphons = bad

I understand why they included it to prevent baffling concepts but it also means you have the ability to nuke all output in general and have multiple siphons "chained". This is essentially the core feature that allows mass griefing.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#360 - 2013-10-17 20:42:27 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Why would you blow it up when you can take out the moongoo, leave, and repeat later for as long as it takes the owner to notice?

*edit* misread. Obviously if you're blue you wouldn't do that.

You wouldn't do that, right?

I suppose that depends on how blue your blue status actually is. Smile

But you are correct, that is also a distinct possibility. Better yet, if the thing is full just empty it, pop it for the kill mail, and put up your own. Obviously the owner isn't highly attentive. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.